Lebron's turnovers will NEVER go down they might go up but never down, his style is too high risk, similar to Magic's style. Did people complain about Magic's turnovers back then? Yes. Looked dumb doing it too, just like the dudes who will complain about Lebron's turnovers in a few years. I think you make turnovers too big of a deal when you focus on them from one player, too many from the team is a big deal, but if you only have one or two turnover prone guys on your team you won't have that many problems with them. Turnovers from one player, even four of them, don't hurt a team as long as that player is making plays to make up for them and the rest of the team is good at avoiding them. Francis isn't as good as Lebron so he doesn't make as many plays, but he does make a lot, combine his rebounds with those plays and you have a player who more than makes up for his turnovers. Wade is another guy who won't improve unless they cut down on his playmaking duties as they did last year, but no coach in their right mind would do that because he's one of the best playmakers in the NBA so he will be around 3.5 turnovers a game every year. The Heat don't average a high amount of turnovers per game though, why is that? Because no one else on the team is turnover prone, you put Francis on that team and they will be around 14 TOs a game, which is a great number to be at. Oh and Wade is only having a decent season??? I agree, however that Omar guy never said he thought Francis was better than those guys. To use that as a slight on Francis doesn't make any sense, as a player he can be behind AI, Kobe, and Wade... so what? 97% of the NBA aren't as good as them. No he's not in the middle, he's only behind AI, Wade, and Arenas in terms of scoring PGs and right with AI in the amount of plays and responsibility he carries with the team. As far as building a team around him, if someone wants to do they can, and they'll have a competitive team. The reason they can do that is that he's one of the top 20 or so players in the NBA, there are 30 teams in the league, do the math. He's more than capable of leading a competitive team, championship team? No, he's not that good. You'll need a deep team with a couple of players around him with similar talent levels to get close, something like Nash has right now in Phoenix. Bringing up max contracts in this is weak, just another petty insult and waste of time. A lot of players in the NBA that have them don't deserve them as much as Francis does and there are a lot more that don't deserve them as much as the guys you listed do. Again... so what?
How about Eric Piatkowski or Glen Rice? Two deadeye shooters that couldnt hit jack when they were Rox.
Without a doubt Pippen. He reduced his trade value with his comments to the media about Barkley. He backed us in a corner. We had to take a lot of garbage contracts to get anything for him. Glen Rice was a big financial diappointment at 9 mil per year - he could not play or contribute.... Moochie was CBA caliber with an NBA contract player after all-we had to trade him for a bad contract in a Fat Clarence Witherspoon
No one else mentions Ralph? Wasn't he supposed to be a cornerstone if not franchise player for this team, after one of the most applauded and decorated college careers ever? Anyone else remember the 1 point game against the Celtics in the playoffs, and getting beat down by the 5 ft 2 Sichting?
Ralph was a great center,but his move to forward and subsequent injuries ended what should have been a Hall of Fame career.
Magic averaged over 11 assist per game. So, that's why people didn't complain about his TO. He had a ton of assists per game. Just like Nash (11/3.1), Stockton and Isiah. If you want to talk about compensating! That's more like it. Again, you are doing the samething that omar was doing: Saying that Magic had a lot of TO, but neglected to bring up his hight assist. By the way, I would be surprised if LJ doesn't average over 9APG in his career and drops his TO below 3.0. So, what you are saying is that having ONE TO prone player is ok? Right? Did you miss the last 5 years? Guess who lead our team in TO? Francis at 3.7 per game? Guess how many the next guy had? Mobley, at around 2.8. And guess how well our TEAM played? Mediocre. Guess how many TO prone player we have now? None. Yao has dropped his TO rate to 2.76. TMac is around 2.6. JJ was our worst since SF. And both are gone. Guess how good we are playing as a team? You should know. The rebounds you say that SF "makes up" are being done right NOW by a guy named Sura. With the bonus that Sura only gets 2.6 per game. Who makes up for our scoring? Tmac/Yao. Problem solved and our team is better for it. If you put SF on Miami, they would still be a good team (win more) because of Shaq (although, Wade is better than SF). But those TO per game would NOT be 14. More like 15-16. Our current team w/out SF is at 14.5. And we hope to drop that under 14 before the end of the season. A SF lead team? Not very likely. You think that Orlando being at 16.5 TO per game is an accident? They were around 13 per game last year with TMac, Lue and Howard. Is it a coincidence that the team's TO rate has increased now that SF is there? I think not. You're missing the point. He brought up the other guys because they had HIGH TOs. And then used that against us by saying, why don't you complain about them? That's when I brought up that the reason those guys might get more leeway is because they score so much more than SF. So, the comparison has to look all everything those players do vs Francis. You can't just say, "Hey, their TO are the same. They are the same." Again, that's why I pointed that out. He was using them as a reason *not* to bash Francis. I was saying that he's in the "middle" in terms of scoring compared to the highest scoring players that omar was talking about. He's not a 10ppg guy (Sura, Daniels, or Ridnour), he's not a 30ppg (like Kobe, Tmac or AI). He's somewhere in the middle (20ppg). That's what I meant. Not that he's "right behind Wade, Arenas, AI....in terms of scoring PG..." That's not what I was referring to. Yeah and? What's the point of *just* having a completive team? And you'll need a LOT more talent around SF for his team to be championship caliber. A lot! TMac/Yao can get away with having good teammates. SF can't do that. He needs great teammates. Like Shaq! Or like Duncan. Bringing up max contracts is NOT weak...we're talking about the ROCKETS! I don't care about what other players get. I care about what the Rockets get. And if I feel they have a max contract player that is going nowhere...then I'll bring it up. Insult or not.
DavidS- I'm not going to get into another one of your twisted Francis bashing sessions by debating your "accentuate the negative and overexaggerate the sh-t out of it" strategy on the merits because that is in the past desptite your best efforts to drduge it up.... ...but are you honestly defending the ridiculous position that Steve Francis was "the most disappointing Rocket"? You are honestly arguing that his career was more "disappointing", whatever that may mean, than Eddie Griffin, Scottie Pippen, John Lucas, Derrick Chevious, John Turner, Dave Jamerson, Rodney McCray, Ralph Sampson, Sleepy Floyd etc etc etc? If so, then what a stupid thing to say. Did you start watching the Rockets last week?
No, Erik Meek was the most disappointing Rocket! Ha! Joking aside, I say that Eddie Griffin or Sampson's injury prone career was the *most* disappointing Rocket. Francis was the most *frustrating* and *stupid* Rocket. Maybe that should be another thread. And I "accentuate the negative and overexaggerate the sh-t out of it" because they are those that choose to just go with the flow and say things like, "Yeah, but he played his heart out...blah, blah, blah..." Or, "Other players have high TOs...." or "His points make up for his his high TO....etc..." My reply is always...What does it matter if he's a clueless player? Do we expect to win a title with player (supposed leader) like that? Should we ever apologize for a player like that? If those that believe that think we should, I say go watch Orlando for a couple more seasons.
If you saw Ralph before he blew out his knee, he did not disappoint. His injury was a disappointment, though. He averaged 20+ and 10+ with nearly 2 blocks a game. At 7'4" he was one of the most athletic big men ever. If not for his injury, we would have seen a title in Houston much sooner with the twin towers.
My point was that people DID complain about Magic not being able to cut his turnovers down, he did it a lot as a rookie and he turned it over a lot in his last season. That's why I can't see Lebron cutting down his turnovers, their games are so similar and the quality of teammates Lebron will play with will never be as high as the guys Magic played with. That was an independent statement on Lebron only and you blaming his youth on his turnovers, which more than likely won't go away with age. If they don't go away nobody should complain, although you have already said that you will, cause in a few years that dude will be making more plays than anybody since Magic Johnson. Dude, the Rockets were mediocre because they made bad management decisions, not because of turnovers or Steve Francis. Two guys turning the ball over is fine too, I just checked the Heat's numbers and Shaq turns it over 2.9 times per game, no one else has a problem with them though so they Heat as a team don't either. As opposed to last season's Rocket team when EVERY player in the starting lineup had problems with turning the ball over, as a matter of fact, EVERY player AND the sixth man had problems with them. As Rockets playing with Francis or on other teams without him they were always turnover prone, why a GM would put a group of turnover prone role players around turnover prone stars is beyond me but CD managed to do it. Thank God Jeff Van Gundy's philosophies are rubbing off on the guy. Yao is still turnover prone he just doesn't get the minutes or touches to rack them up too high. I love that the Rockets don't have problems with them anymore, but the fact of the matter is when only one player on your team has had a history of problems with them you won't have turnover problems, period. That's why we're enjoying what we have been seeing this season. Where did that come from? I'm not even talking comparisons with last season's team. Again, I love the Rockets team right now, we're much better than we were last season. So, Francis goes to the Heat and replaces Wade's four TOs per game with his own four TOs per game and the Heat, as a team, will turn the ball over three more times than they do now? Right. Anyway, a couple of years ago the Rockets were under 15, around 14.5. The Magic are not at 16.5 turnovers per game and no, it's not a surprise that Orlando has problems with them or with defense with Johnny Davis as their coach. I'm only surprised Grant Hill doesn't turn the ball over more, but everyone else is around their average. Nobody did. The point is not every team in the NBA will have a Tim Duncan type super star on their team, so someone will be forced to build around the next best players, a group that Steve Francis falls into. Luckily for us we have Tracy McGrady who has the most potential out of anyone who hasn't reached that status yet. It shouldn't be a slight on Francis to say that he needs great teammates to win a championship, unless someone says he doesn't, besides most championship teams have more than one great player on them and plenty of depth. If you felt that way then you should of said that, not compared his max contracts to the top 5 players in the NBA as if those are the only players who deserve one.
But the number of people that complained about Magic turnovers were not as many as those that complained about Francis's turnovers. So, when you say, "people DID complain" who are you talking about? LA fans or media that wanted him to improve? Was it running rampant? I don't remember that. They were winning championships. So, I think if most of those complainers were drowned out a bit. Anyways....Don't you think that 11 assist with 3.5 TO is better than 6.5 assist with 3.7 TO. And which stat do you think would be more reasonable to *complain about?* The point is LJ and Magic are soooo dominant in all aspects of the game: points, assists (10+) or even rebounds (triple doubles) that they get more leeway. If, you are trying to some how compare the situation of Francis to those guys...well, you'll off. Because LJ and Magic are on another level of talent over-all. They are the guys you are supposed to build a team around. Not SF. Magic, made his teammates better around him. LJ is learning that. I love his passing. Francis makes himself better. I hope your not going to imply that SF makes his team "better" by scoring 21/6/6 (+3.7 TO), well that's debatable....but you'll never *see (or understand)* how many opportunity he misses to get the easy pass/score from his teammates. Else, I wouldn't be be here trying to explain it to you. I just don't think you understand how much negative effect a PG has on a team that IS turnover prone. It's really effects the flow of the offense more than you believe. By the way, me "blaming his youth on his turnovers (LJ)" is only half the equation. You forget that with experience you can also improve your assists. Experience can also improve your timing. Experience can also improve your scoring. So, although you think that his TO will not go down with more experience (no longer young....), I think that his improvement will be relative to his experience....so, you don't belive his TO will go down, I do. Wait and see... How will I prove this? Compare LJ's 6th year to Francis. Players with brains, actually improve. Sure, they're are those that will complain that his needs to still improve his game. But all players get that. Even Tmac. Even our beloved Yao. Not everone is just like Francis. No improvement. What's next for Francis? Eight assist per game w/5 TO per game? Great.... I can't believe you would actually say that. The fact that Francis was turnover prone was one of the *biggest* reasons that no matter what management decisions were made that it was a pretty good chance that our team WOULD NOT improve. You can't have one without the other. I'll put it simply. If the foundation (star players) of the team is weak. Then, it wont matter what you build on top of it. That's why when you put a group of players on a team that are smart, intelligent, and play as team...then you'll be able to mesh them with a foundation of strong core of stars, who are also smart as well as talented. That's the only way your team can move into the elite status. Building on a idiot star. Will only produce a team of idiots. Shaq's TO numbers, to be exact, are 2.84. I hope you aren't saying that he's turnover prone compared to those other shooting/POINT GUARDS that has 3.7-4.0. Are you saying that? Please don't. It's not the same. Any TO rate that can get under 3.0 is doing well. Especially for a PG. Just look around the league. Those guard under 3.0 are the one you want. Please tell me who was turnover prone in the past Rocket teams? Who Yao?(2.4) JJ (2.2)? MObley(2.5)? MoT (1.8)? Those numbers are NOT what I consider "turnover prone." Francis's 3.7 on the other hand IS! See, I think what your problem is is that you blame our the teammates perceived TO problems (huh?) instead of Francis. The fact is that having a turnover prone PG is the ROOT cause that no matter what teammates you place around him. That TEAM will always struggle to get in sync. So, it *seems* to you that we had other turnover prone players. It wasn't true. Francis was the cause of any perceived team turnovers that the suffered from. He was the PG. He was our main star. His job was to make sure the offense was flowing. It was his job to distribute. It was his job to make sure that his passes were sent to the right player, AT THE RIGHT TIME. All these factors have a tremendous effect on how well role players play! How well those players score. How well those players fit into the system. It's all interrelated. And it starts with he PG. If that PG has problems turning the ball over himself (dribble off his foot or drive into 3 defenders), it's no wonder that he'll have trouble passing the ball with accuracy to others player. SF is a klutz. Thus, that's what you'll get as a team. I'm not sure what you are saying above? You say, "Yao is still turnover prone?" Yet he's under 2.8? I don't get that. Or maybe you're saying that Yao is a natural turnover player? Ok, I'll play along....If you are turnover prone, don't ya think it's a good idea to first get your timing before you start passing more? His touches are not the blame. His stamina, balance and positioning dictate his touches. So, the fact of the matter is that Yao is getting less turnovers because he is understanding JVG's offense better, his teammates, his stamina is better, is positioning is better, and he's not forcing passes as much because of all the thing I said above. So, for you to say, "Yao's is still turnover prone" is silly. It's like you are trying to say that, just like Francis's, we have others player that are BORN to turnover! Uh, no. Smart players learn when to pass and when not to pass. Yao is learning that (3rd year player). That's all that matters. When he's ready for more touches he'll get that. And his turnover rate should not go up relative to his learning curve. Don't believe me? Watch his yearly to rate each year. It will hover around 2.5. That's fine w/me. Knowing your limitations is not the same thing as "being turnover prone." The reason we are *much better* is because Francis is gone and we replaced our *stars* with TMac, Barry, Sura, and Westley...smart talented players. And to answer you question above....In order to counter any suggestion that we are "missing* Francis's rebounds, driving or hustle...well, we can look no further than Sura and of course TMac's scoring, rebounds and assists (and low TO). Add the fact that our PG (G playing PG) is not turnover prone (Sura). That's all the more reason to blame SF's for our past struggles. Why can't you see that? Again, not sure what you are trying to say....Are you saying that back in 2001-02 because we around 14.5, that's it supposed to prove something? What? That we live in the past? That it shows that a Francis lead team can improve? What? As far as Francis going to play with Shaq? If you were the general manager, would you trade Wade from Francis? Enough said.... If so, why? Because you *think* their TO are the same? Do you think that SF is better than Wade? Do you think that Wade shoots worse than SF? Do you think that SF is a better teamplayer? What? Would you do that trade? Please tell me.... Yes, defense is a main reason they have problems. But we're not talking about that. i was pointing out the increase in turnover from last year to this (Orlando). And that increase has a direct correlation to none other than SF. Grand Hill is a smart player that knows when to pass, and when to shoot. Again, I'm not sure what the point of your above quote is about? You'll surprised that Hill doesn't turn the ball over more? Ok, and? Their increased TO must be related to your friend Francis. See below for the team averages.... NBA.com http://www.nba.com/magic/stats/2003/index.html (Magic last year: 13.7) http://www.nba.com/magic/stats/ (Magic this year: 16.2) Yahoo Sports http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/b...team&sort=243&conference=NBA&year=season_2003 (Magic last year: 13.0) http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/b...team&sort=243&conference=NBA&year=season_2004 (Magic this year: 15.8) Oh, no? Look below....explain to me what Omar is implying? Could it be that, if we bash Francis, then we must also bash AI and Kobe (even though they aren't on the Rockets)? That we should overlook AI's 27PPG, and just bash them for the TO? That we should ignore the fact that Francis averages 21ppg, yet AI and Kobe average over 27? Hmmmm? I'd say that Omar WAS implying the point that those other guys are "just like Francis (same)" and that's *all* we should be looking at is that their TO are similar. Just to clarify....I wasn't implying that I wouldn't bash Kobe or AI if one of them was on our team. I probably would. Both of them have had a history selfishness. Add their TO just makes it worse. So, I probably would bash Kobe and AI if they were with the Rockets. But at least the sting of their TO wouldn't be as bad as SF's because they would be giving us a 27+ point production. Anways....Good thing they are are not on our team. Tmac is better (26ppg/only 2.6 TO per game). Yes. Let me ask you this? Why not get smart, good players, like Bibby or Nash or Parker or Billups or Manu Ginobili or Hinrich? Does it mean that we are to rely all our scoring on those type players? NO. But at least you *build* a foundation that is solid from the start. You know what you are getting. And that leaves the door open for us to get a real super star that can elevate us to the elite team status. Why risk our future on a supposedly "leader" named Francis (shaky ground). Then, try and build upon that? Why? It's not wise.
Maloney, Brent Price( came as a highly touted prospect Via Washington) Pippen, Eddie, Taylor(Obvious reasons) Dickerson,and to a certian extent Charles!. However, Glen Rice was'nt a dissapointment, he was just washed up. we infact i believe we did a good job of Squeezing what ever game he had left.
1. Eddie Griffen (three first round picks) 2. Mo Taylor (basically because of his contract) 2. Scottie Pippen (ran away after one season) 4. Sampson (someone that tall and athletic should have been better) 5. Rice (I knew he was past his prime, but homeboy couldn't make a shot) Anyone who puts the Franchise on the list is confused. If it weren't for the Anderson/Rice mistake, the Pipen mistake, and the signing of Mo-T to major money, who knows where we would have been the last few seasons. Franchise did alright for us, we just made some horrible player personel decisions durring his time here.
I was never a Fan of Fracis, but you gotta a be an BONAFIDE IDIOT!! to Include him in that list. the guy gave his heart and oul for this club and along the way, got us to the playoffs last season!.
