Most dissapointing Rocket

I'm afraid now!? Why? I still think what I think; I don't care what others think, that is their right. Logic? My opinion makes perfect logic to me.

Why can't we enjoy the success of the current team, together. I am loving it. Let's give up these tired old arguments. Francis is gone. The team is on a roll. They are playing very entertaining basketball. Let's move on. In some ways I am sorry I even responded to this thread. It pulls me back into the negativity of the past.

Be honest, Sam Fisher, isn't this basketball better than the last five years?

 

Yes, of course it is, what I wonder is why people like you and DavidS somehow believe that is the relevant issue in this thread. This isn't about trading him for McGrady, that was the right move of course.

This is about crapping on his grave and labelling his Rockets career as a bigger failure than Griffin, Pippen, etc, - when he was clearly not.

 

I still remember the day we traded Ralph, I was pissed. I thought we gave up on him too early, but hindsight is 20/20. Due to the knee problems, it was the right move, although JBC and Sleepy weren't anything to write home about either, but the most disappointing Rocket? Come on, I really feel he gave it his all when he was here, with the exception of his 1 point performance in the finals after his fight with Schisting which really shook his confidence and I don't think he ever mentally recovered.

Griffin on the other hand, never played to his potential while in Houston and actually seems to be flourishing in Minnesota. He has my vote for the most dissapointing Rocket along with Pippen who sh** all over the Rox when he left.

 

We thought Steve was going to be a top 5 player in the league when we saw him his rookie year, the dude blew us away from the start. We watched steve for 5 years hoping for some improvement and saw none, now he's with another team and already there are rumors of Orlando looking to trade him...hell, he hasn't even had a chance to settle into his new house there ! Imagine the kind of criticism he'd receive if he played there for 5 years and is still the same player, making the same mistakes...being JUST good enough to barely make it into the playoffs.

People can stand by Steve all they want, but to say his Rocket career was a disappointment isn't that far of a stretch. He wasn't THE MOST disappointing, but he might have been if we weren't so lucky to get Tmac.

 

He Said in terms of COACHING and not as a player. infact i agee with him. as a player rudyy was a awesom player but after Hakkem left, the Rockets front office went COCO.

 

Exactly. He did give a hell of an effort when he was healthy, but that's what was so disappointing about him...he showed that he could've been GREAT w/o injuries. Guys like Griffin and such usually were not that great (although we thought they might have been later on...good ol' 'potential') and ended up sucking still. Griffin's play in Minny this year is nearly a mirror image of what his past 2 seasons were like. He shows flashes and then he's done for the year. Hell, his lack of production and constant 3 point lobbing is one of the reasons Minny is on the down slope. Same ol' Eggie.

 

You can make a good case for it, if you were silly enough to think he was a similar prospect to Hakeem coming out of college. I doubt you'd be able to find one NBA scout or GM, even without hindsight, who would take Francis 1999 over Akeem 1984 - hell Elton Brand beat him out.

Is Elton Brand as disappointing a player as Francis? Expectations were higher - and he's won a lot less games and put up similar numbers.

Otherwise, he was just a top five pick. I'd say multiple all star teams and 20-6-6 is not bad, he's been as good or better than his contemporaries from that draft (Brand, Davis, Miller)

Even against those expectations, he came a lot closer to living up to his promise than did Eddie Griffin (7th overall - 3 first rounders - never averaged double digits in any category, shot up his girlfriend, quit on the team, was released), or any number of other players. The Rockets refused to trade Griffin for Rashard FREAKING Lewis. Lewis is now an all star.

You can try to rewrite history all you want, but this argument is going nowhere.

 

O.K., Sam Fisher, I am going to take one last shot. Griffin and Pippen weren't as disappointing for me personally, because in Griffin's case he never really showed that much. The stupid three point shots, and his deadpan personality didn't help. Pippen was such a "short-termer" he was kind of a non-factor. With Francis, he was supposed to be the second-coming of Hakeem, the new hope of a championship. At times he showed flashes of brillance. His incredible athleticism was breath-taking, but, after a while, so were his blunders. At first we all chalked it up to immaturity. But after five years the hopes pinned to Francis just faded away. That was all very disappointing. Surely, you can understand why I felt that way.

 

OK, if you had some sort of emotional attachment with expectations of Francis that were that sky high, and correspondingly thought Griffin was going to be a bust from day one, thought Ralph Sampson was overrated even after a couple of all star games, knew Dave Jamerson couldn't hit an NBA 3, thought Rodney McCray was the best available player at 3rd overall, were happy with Sleepy Floyd's tenure, didn't care when Pippen trashed the team and demanded a trade after half-assing it through a half season, et cetera, ad nauseum, then you can make a case for him being the most disappointing ever.

 

Sam, here's a little clarity...

The issue with Sampson and Griffin are two different type of "disappointments."

One was about real dominant talent (Rook of the Year, NCAA Player of the Year, and one of the best, if not THE best 7+ft ball handing center ever!)...Sampson. He was supposed to be, and WAS for a while, a truly great player. The tandem of Akeem/Sampson really tore up the league. They were a force. The "disappointment" was that his career never finished due to injury. Thus, I'm disappointed.

Griffin, a 7th pick, naturally gifted player....but has an attitude problem. He can't take constructive criticism and seems to be an underachiever. He got away from us. And he would have been a good addition if he hadn't shot people (or at them). For that, I'm disappointed.

Buck Johnson was another player that I had hopes for. He was good, but never really took off. But I wasn't as upset about it since we had a revolving door with guards for a while...so, what else was new? Sleepy Floyd ended up being a bit better...So, for that, I was *kinda* disappointed.

Francis (a 2nd pick), showed promise. I don't think I've seen a guard with such quick sky-high hops (as in rabbit) since maybe Spud Webb. I remember a play during SF rookie year where he drove baseline and got past his defender...after he was 3 feet by his defender, instead of taking two steps then trying to reverse it, he went STRAIGHT UP for a dunk! Whoa! I had never seen a Rocket do that. Ever! Especially a guy that was only 6'2!

These were the proverbial "carrots" that lead me to believe that he was going to be the future of this team. All he needed was time, right? Because as you know (?), most players improve with time. I say, most.

So, because he didn't improve...that's why I would say I'm "disappointed."

Each player above was a disappointment for different reasons.

 

"So, you think I got a chance!" (Dumb and Dumber)

 

How about we make a bet? I bet that LJ's TO get down below 2.8. And he reaches 9 assist per game in two years. Style has nothing to do with it. If the player can learn, he can improve (it's called, using your brain).

Jordan had "iso/driving/dunking/style" yet he dropped from 3.5 to 2.7 in his first few years. He had extra ordinary physical talent(like LJ), but also used his brain to put his body to good use.

Your brain should tell your body what to do (LJ, TMac, Duncan, KG). Not, your body should tell your brain what to do (Like Francis).

So, is it a bet?

You have defined "2.x" as bad. Where did you get that from? I doesn't matter what type of player we are talking about; center, pf, sf.... even if they only get 2-3 assist per game. If they average only 2.5 TO per game, playing ANY position, within 25-35 minutes. He's not as bad as a PG that averages 3.7+...whos responsibility is to TAKE CARE OF THE DAMN BALL!

His turnover prone tendencies have a HUGE negative effect on how he gets others involved, sets up plays, and generally dictates the offense. AS A TEAM. If that PG is clueless and turnover prone. They will have a worse effect on the team than a SF or SG who's job it is to RECEIVE the ball from the POINT GUARD! Do you understand what I mean?

So, 2.5 is NOT bad for any player. Is 1.5 or lower better. Sure. But 2.5 is not bad.

Look here...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/bycategory?cat=Fielding&conference=NBA&year=season_2004&sort=36

Check out how many guards, forwards and centers are between 2.9 and 2.0. Those player are perfectly fine with those numbers. It's when ANY player gets over 3.0 that it start to become an issue. KG even has 2.7! Oh my god! Just because he's a PF and not a PG doesn't mean that 2.7 is bad.

MoT, in the last few years with the Rox averaged below 1.9. And last year averaged 2.0. He's not a good passer. But 2.0 TO per game is NOT bad! Could it be better. Sure! You said above, "They should have no business getting 2.x TO" Sorry. I don't buy that. Any player that has below 2.8 is fine with me.

Now, since you brought up three players from the past Rockets that had around 2.5 TO per game....how about our current starters? Hmmm, lets see...

Yao = 2.8
Tmac = 2.6
Sura = 2.6
Barry = 2.9! Oh my god! Call 911! It's crime! NOT!

Two older Rockets early this year...
JJ = 2.3 is NOT bad considering his 41 minute played per game.
MoT = 1.7. That's NOT bad!

The rest are under 1.2 with limited minutes.

Please stop apologizing for Francis's 3.7-4.0 TO. And I wont apologize for Wade.

Why would you bring up Haslem? Do you know that most of the plays require him to dunk the ball from alley-oops and offensive rebounds? How much does he really handle the ball? Really?

He's not much different that Kelvin Cato (1.7). Now why would Cato (hands of stone) have a low TO rate? Could it be that he never gets plays called for him or rarely handles the ball?

I think we agree that any player that has 1.9 or lower TO is better than 2.5. I'm not debating that. What I am saying is that 2.5 is NOT bad, no matter what postion. Actually I think that anything below 2.8 is GOOD. Below 2.3 is great!

Well, you're not saying anything that most people don't know. Players like SF will be replaced sooner or later.

We agree on what type of players JVG likes.

If Wade continues to have TO problems into his 5-6 year. Then Miami fans will be calling for his head. You wait.

If Yao can average 31 minutes per game and reach 2.8. I'm fine with that. Do I want him to improve? Sure! He's in his 3rd year. Give him time. He has a brain. He can learn.

If Hakeem can average 35 minutes per game and get around 3.1 TO per game. I'd say that Yao is doing fine with this current 31/2.8. And that WILL improve in 2-3 years! I'd say down to 2.5.

Wait...first you say players are not born with it. Then you say, "you either do or you don't." That sounds like it's INGRAINED. Like, uh, *born with it.*

By the way, I believe that Francis is BORN dumb and will always be dumb. Yao is NOT like that. He will improve. He's shown that over the last 2 1/2 years. Francis? The same over the last 6 years.

There's your "either they do, or they don't" for ya!

True. Remember back when Hill was with Detroit and was averaging around 3.5 TO per game and around 6 APG? His TO were noticeable. Sure, he could drive to the basket like a mad man and had a FG% of 48%+! I think that's why people gave him some slack. But his TO were noticeable. Today, he's only at 2.5. And it's not noticeable at all.

I was talking about Parker when Duncan is on the bench. Or Ginobili, on his own. Not the records. Just like Bibby. He has no super-duper Duncan or Shaq. Yet, you still can see how good/smart/efficient PG he is. As individuals.

You say it's "easy" to see how Parker/Manu are good because of "Duncan" then you turn around and say, it's "easy" to see how good Billups is because of his "best front court?" Huh?...which is it? You are straddling the fence. I wasn't talking about their team's records.

If you have a dominant Duncan-like player it makes the team better. Sure. But you can't go and say that Francis needs a dominant player to be *good* like Parker/Manu have, then turn around and say that Billups is only *good* because of his great teammates w/NO dominant player.

You are using a double-standard.

Parker, Bibby, Manu, Billups are solid, smart players no matter what team they are on. They carry their "smarts" with them wherever they go. I'm not talking about their team's winning percentage. I'm talking about them, as individuals. Because they are smart it allows them to integrate themselves into the team concept as better players are added to their roster.

By the way, NONE of those player I mentioned are players you build EXCLUSIVELY around. I thought I made that clear in my other post. I said that it would be better to use them as parts of the puzzle until someone like Tmac, KG, or Duncan comes along. If you can't get one of those type of player, at least you have smart efficient team. That's a lot better than a dumb inefficient team.

Even if both teams only achieved 45 wins. One of them would play intelligent ball. The other would play dumb ball. You are still laying the ground work for better players later.

Oh, and also....you laugh at Hinrich? Ok, how about you let him finish his 2rd year. He's going to be an All-Star quality player....If you said that Bibby was going to be an All-Star quality player after his first two years, people would have called you crazy.

Guys like Bibby can score around 18ppg, get around 6APG, BUT ALSO KEEP THEIR turnovers DOWN around 2.5. That's better. Do they need help in winning a title? Sure.

But you start with a good/soild/dependable/good decision making PG, you're better off from the start. Then, you build from there.

If you start with sometimes good/not always solid/not dependable, bad decision making PG, you're off to a bad start. Building *from there* is more difficult.

 

Actually Ralph beat the crap out of Sichting and about a third of the Celtics.

I'm dissapointed myself to see Ralph Sampson, Francis, Rodney McCray, Lewis Lloyd and Mitchell Wiggins mentioned in this thread. While all of those guys had problems that cut short their careers or didn't make them into MVP's they all contributed mightily to the Rox. I would in no way put those guys even in the same sentence with Quitten or Griffen.

Its sad to see how much hatred there is still of Francis. Yeah he was frustrating as hell to watch but if you think he was a dissapointmen to the Rox look how well they did that year that he was pretty much out. This guy was the Franchise after Hakeem retired up until JVG came.

Are the Rox a better team without him? I was one of those who was leery about the trade but looking at it now I'll have to say yes they are but that's still doesn't erase all of the heart and fire that Francis brought to this team. Anyway at the minimum unlike Quitten who couldn't wait to pack his bags Francis loved this team and this town and I can be proud of him for that even without his B-Ball talent.

 

I forgot to add my picks for most dissapointing Rocket.

1. Quitten has to top the list. Sure he wasn't here for a long time but he was supposed to be and if he hadn't quit on the team pretty much all the way through a half season he might've been here longer.

2. Eddie Griffen, enough said.

3. Brent Price, There's a reason his nic was 'Crispy'

4. Matt Maloney, not so much for his play but for his contract.

5. John Lucas. When he did play he played well and he also seemed like a great guy. I'm more dissapointed in him as a person than as a player.

6. Joe Barely Cares. The nic says it all.

8. Sleepy Floyd. He had the knack for only showing up on nationally televised games.

9. Terry Teagle, remember when he said he was better than Jordan.

10. T-Mac, why not just to irritate the Francis haters. Stevie did take us to the playoffs you know and T-Mac has yet to do that.

 

I've got to go with Eddie Griffin just because not only did he not give us ANYTHING after we gave up so much to get him, he didn't even give us anything in leaving. Even in the case of Pippen we got Walt Williams and Cato. I know that isn't much, but it's not nothing and of course Cato ended up being part of the McGrady deal.

 

Sure, but he has to get 9 assists and keep his turnovers to 2.8 or lower, that's easy money! For clutch fans of course.

Jordan is a different type of player who's focus was more on scoring, Lebron's is mostly on passing and I don't see Lebron getting that playmaking disappoint of a Rocket named Scottie Pippen to help him out. EASY MONEY!

Two or more is poor for role players especially if they’re third or fourth options, sixth men, and bench players; you can't have those types of players if you want to be a low turnover team. NO. You don't want your PG turning it over close to four times a game, but if you have no other choice you had better be sure that the role players around him don't add to the problem, the Rockets didn't do that.

KG at 2.7 is excellent for the amount of plays he makes, Jim Jackson at 2.2 is less, but horrible when you consider he doesn't contribute close to half of what KG does as a FOURTH option.

You say any player below 2.8 is fine and below 2.3 is GREAT, but if you have a seven man rotation (less than normal) and each average 2.2, that's 15.4 a game!

Barry does not average 2.9 a game, more like 1.

Not if they keep bringing in players similar to the ones they have now, it'll be like, "Dwayne, go ahead and challenge the turnover record, every year if you want, as long as you keep making most of the plays and as a team we keep them under 13.5."

I'm just comparing Yao to the post players around him, 2.8 is around their peak, he gets that in less minutes and without getting any assists. It's not about having a brain, learning or anything to do with a high or low basketball IQ, was Magic Johnson to dumb to keep them down? Can you think of a player that had a drastic change in that department in their 5th or 6th year like you expect Yao to have?

I still maintain that you're not born with it, but if you reach the NBA level and still have a problem with them after years and years of doing it you will have a VERY, VERY hard time to fix it, close to impossible.

That's the most important thing and you know it, it's no coincidence that you chose to name winners instead of players with similar games, but opposite records. I'm also not saying that those players (Parker, Ginobili, and Billups) as individuals aren't any good, but they look a lot better than they really are because they win so much. Except Ginobili in a way, after all he did win a Gold Medal.

Stephon Marbury, having the best individual season of his career, why not name him? Maybe because the Knicks are embarrassing? Let him be good/smart/efficient in comparison to Steve Francis, people can say that his basketball IQ is much higher than Francis’; I'll just say that he's a moron in comparison because he has no idea how to win. Andre Miller, great numbers, smart player, good defense, one winning season in his career, maybe that's why you didn't mention him? I like him though, he's a nice rebounder and can pass, score, but his teams don’t win consistently, and that's where he falls short to Francis.

Don't tell me you voted for Hinrich in that Hinrich vs Wade thread this past offseason season, wouldn’t surprise me since 70% of the votes went to Kurt. He's doing a fine job though, winning with a team full of players who were getting used to losing all these years.

We'll just differ in that, I'll build around the best player regardless of the type of game he has, which means Bibby over Francis anyway.

Well, I've worn out the word turnover, it's derailed the thread big time, and you can only use a word so much, now I can't say it for the rest of the year! Fortunately the Rockets don't have to worry about that anymore.

 

EG, EG,EG..........

 

I can't argue with the choices of Pippen, Griffen, and Sampson. But for an "Honorable Mention" . . . .

For your consideration: <b>Robert Horry</b> (1995-1996 and on)

Funny how time works. We look back on those glory days of '94 and '95 with nostalgia, remembering the confetti and the comebacks and the parades. We remember Horry dominating the Magic, "redefining" the forward position, according to some sports columnists.

Since Horry was part of those two banners--a big part, admittedly--we forget about what happened next. Sometime in the fall of 1995, Robert Horry decided that he was a three-point specialist. (I think there was one game in November that he scored something like 21 points on 7-7 3 pointers. I could be a little off.) He quit slashing. He quit dunking. He quit playing 48 minutes of defense.

After that '95 season, Horry wasn't a bad player. He wasn't an embarrasment or anything. But he never came close to realizing the potential of his first few seasons. Back in the day he overflowed with talent. It seemed he could flick a switch and do anything that he wanted.

But he stopped flicking that switch. Or maybe he only flicked it for 9 minute stretches in the playoffs (a la his career with the Lakers). I honestly believe, though, that if Horry had more heart, more fire, more of a work ethic, he could have been a perennial All-Star.

 

You must have an IQ this high to post, and you must be this tall to post, what are you, 4 or 5? Can't be much past that.