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The McHale/Harden dynamic is eerily reminiscent of Rudy T/Steve Francis

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by DarkHorse, Nov 16, 2015.

  1. DarkHorse

    DarkHorse Contributing Member

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    Admittedly, Rudy T was much more loved in these parts historically, and James Harden is clearly a better player than Steve Francis ever was, but the battle lines and narrative are like deja vu all over again.

    But people forget than in his last year or so, fans were souring on Rudy T and his "rah rah" approach to the game. The narrative was that that's the kind of coaching that works with businesslike veterans such as Hakeem, Drexler and company, but it was also said that a new coach was needed to bring some discipline to Francis and the young core of players around him, including Cuttino Mobley and Yao Ming. (remember, at least part of the reason Hakeem played his last season Toronto is because there were some who felt that Francis' progress was being held back, and that the reins needed to be handed over to a new leader.

    Check out this thread. Sound familiar?
    http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=46018

    Here are some classics:
    http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=54491
    http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=51897
    http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=57796

    Rare pro-Rudy support:
    http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=56397

    Get ready for this kind of backlash from the players:
    http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=55459
    http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=56316


    In the midst of all this turmoil, we all know of course that Rudy resigned during the offseason and Jeff Van Gundy was brought in to right the ship.

    Ironically, however, Francis didn't change a bit. In fact, it was the beginning of the end of his career, although we didn't know it yet.

    The talk continues:
    http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=65866
    http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=72571
    http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=72564
    http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=76892

    Admission that maybe it was never Rudy?
    http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=69246
    http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=52750



    Anyway, I'm not really supporting McHale, who I personally think is a pretty lackluster coach - certainly from an X's and O's standpoint. But really I wanted to point out that I feel like we've seen all of this before.

    McHale is certainly an issue. He has many deficiencies. But at the same time, it's the players, including Harden, Dwight, Lawson, Brewer, even Ariza, that need to share this blame. They are the leaders, and at the end of the day, I don't think you can fix personality. Dwight is kind of a known quantity at this point. Harden seems to have let his notoriety get to his head, and he may not be able to come back from that. Lawson came to us with red flags, so that was always a risk going in.

    Using history as an indicator, the outlook for the Rockets as currently constructed is tenuous as best.
     
    8 people like this.
  2. ibm

    ibm Member

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    completely diff. imo.

    rudy has rings as a coach. mchale has never been close.
    rudy willingly chose and gambled on sf3. harden's coming to hou had nothing to do with mchale.
    rudy, for as a "liberal" coach as he was, could also instill discipline. mchale, not so much.

    and i am not projecting this team's near future...
     
  3. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    Wow. Thanks for all the research. I'm going to read some of those threads, later.

    so, without further adieu:

    Five Star Thread! Will read again.
     
  4. RasaqBoi

    RasaqBoi Member

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    Great post DarkHorse (Repped)

    I agree with everything you said.
     
  5. Ziggy

    Ziggy QUEEN ANON

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    Rudy was doing a lot with very little IMO. He actually found a way to game the NBA system with ISO and got more out of Francis than anyone else ever could. He showed the rare ability to adapt a system. In retrospect, Rudy did a hell of a job.

    And that's all I have to say about that.
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. DarkHorse

    DarkHorse Contributing Member

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    Just to be clear, the point of this thread isn't to say "I think McHale is a good coach and we should get off his back," but more to say that "bringing in a new coach, even if he's a great coach, isn't going to fix everything"

    Most people would agree that Jeff Van Gundy is a great, or at the very least, very good coach.

    Even he had to throw his hands up in disgust at some point, and the Rockets were forced to make a personnel change. (pretty amazing that they were able to land T-Mac, in retrospect)
     
  7. FLASH21

    FLASH21 Heart O' Champs

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    Completely agree with you.

    The guy is definitely sub par, but at the moment so is our team.

    :(
     
  8. photojoe

    photojoe Member

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    Repped for the research and the perspective.

    Also, in this thread that you posted (http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=54491) DaDakota said:


    "The Rockets still play crappy ISO basketball, no one is moving off the ball, and their defense is beyond terrible."

    I could have sworn he was talking about this year. That was posted in 2003.
     
  9. JVL713

    JVL713 Contributing Member

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    Props to you for your research, you definitely have a compelling argument.

    My only rebuttal would be to look at what happened with Harden at Team USA. I talked about this a bit in another thread so I'll try not to repeat myself too much, but basically I think Harden has shown that he can put his issues aside if he has the proper guidance. After playing under Coach K/Thibs, Harden came into the season last year with a completely different attitude. That attitude eventually waned off towards the end of the season, and is now completely gone.

    We need someone who can come in and not only re-inspire this team, but give them a game plan as well. It's one thing to keep saying "play harder" over and over again, but the team needs guidance too. Imagine if you were at a new job. Your boss can tell you "work harder" all day, but if you don't know what to do, what exactly can you work harder at? I know this isn't the best metaphor because all of these guys are professionals and have been playing basketball their entire lives, but the team needs some structure. After every game we hear the same thing from the players..."We need to focus on defense/effort/etc..." They are well aware of the problem, they just need someone to tell them how to fix it.
     
  10. ibm

    ibm Member

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    sorry.

    i read the post again and now see your point. and i agree to a large extent.
     
  11. T_Man

    T_Man Contributing Member

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    Copy and paste...

    T_Man
     
  12. swyyyguy

    swyyyguy Member

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    i wish hakeem never left us to play for the toronto raptors. :mad:
     
  13. joeson332

    joeson332 Member

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    Damn...........
    damn
    damn
    damn
    damn
     
  14. Torn n Frayed

    Torn n Frayed Member

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    Florida Evens your thoughts on this thread....
     
  15. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    wow, nice job reviving a YOF thread from 2002. :rolleyes: You really shouldn't be reviving any threads in the OP. Mods frown on that.
     
  16. DarkHorse

    DarkHorse Contributing Member

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    On the other hand, it occurs to me that there is a legitimate ray of hope here. By my estimation, Rudy was a better coach than McHale is, but Harden is a better player than Francis was.

    So if we do make a coaching change, and it's a good one, there is hope.


    JVL713 makes a valid point that we have seen strong, focused play from Harden under the right leadership. And clearly he has the skills. He still has MVP level talent, and heaven knows how long we've waited to see that again in Houston.

    This isn't the Titanic yet.
     
  17. DieHard Rocket

    DieHard Rocket Contributing Member

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    I don't think any particular coach is going to get Harden to the next level - it just has to come to him naturally. He has to mature and develop some mental fortitude. Similar to LeBron during his time in Miami, which coincidentally was at about the same age that Harden is at now.

    My biggest concern with Harden is that he might not have that internal drive that many of the greats do to elevate his game even further. No doubt he's done a great job getting to where he was at last year, but the great ones take it a step further.
     
  18. studogg

    studogg Contributing Member

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    wait....

    are we saying move harden to the two???????


    or simply get riddy of rudy?
     
  19. joeson332

    joeson332 Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  20. DarkHorse

    DarkHorse Contributing Member

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    Hail McHaley a cabbie?
     

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