Reconsider an Asik/Howard Lineup?

No Morey is not listening. Sorry. He and McHale are a NBA brain trust and would never ever benefit from input from this forum. And no DD is not Morey. I assume that statement was just for grins.

 

Yeah, he never reads the forum to know who DaDa is. Just pulled Dada's name out his arse with them telepathy powers.

 

Playing Asik and Howard together diminishes the value asik provides to this team as a backup.

And if it isn't broke don't fix it. We will win 52 games with a majority of them Tjones starting, please leave the basketball decisions to the experts people...

 

Please explain this statement to me....please.

 

Playing dwight and asik does not maximize asik's skill set as a rebounder and rim protector because dwight will be playing that role. On the other hand using asik as a backup allows him to play his natural position with dwight on the bench and anchor our 2nd unit defense. Not really that hard to comprehend..

Trying to shoehorn Asik into the starting lineup has been proven to be a bad idea yet you still pitch for it. It's like beating a dead horse.

 

So....if he plays with Dwight he can't back Dwight up????????

 

Let me be clear, Asik is not gonna start along side howard. Asik is not a good clean up guy and struggles to finish around the basket. TJ is perfect because he is a great finisher and keeps teams honest with his 3.

Unless you know something I don't know tell me why asik should start or play extended minutes alongside howard.

 

Have you read the discussion? This is not about "starting" Asik. Nor is it about playing Asik "extended minutes" alongside Dwight. This whole discussion revolves around the fact that teams that play with double bigs like the Clippers, Grizzlies, Blazers, Thunder, and Spurs on occasion...give Dwight and Jones trouble and we need to get Asik more minutes anyways. This thread is about reconsidering playing Asik and Dwight together for around 12-14 minutes a game as needed, which will be quite often during the playoffs.

 

I only see this working against the Grizzlies and Clippers. Because if needed we can stick Asik on Griffin and Randolph.

However against OKC, Portland, and the Spurs I think having the extra offensive firepower in jones will help us more than Omer. Having omer give dwight a good breather is more important there.

But against the Grizzlies and Clippers i can see situations where omer could potentially play 10 minutes along side dwight.

 

We went 1-3 against the Thunder during the regular season and the Dwight/Jones tandem went -50 against Perk/Adams/Ibaka during those games.

Of course things could magically change in Jones' favor come the playoffs. He could run faster and run all over the place and stuff.

 

Yea... I figured that was all you were doing. You take one of the most meaningless stat from the box score and run with it. Lol...

 

For your consideration I went back through popcornmachine and pieced together how our team did with Dwight and Jones facing our possible Western Conference opponents double big tandems. I also threw in a little of Asik/Howard from the early games against the Clippers, the games where McHale for some inexplicable reason had Asik on DeAndre and Howard on Blake. We got toasted the first game and McHale went right back to those same matchups a second time and got toasted againt. (He never did figure out that the best defensive matchups against the Clips were Asik on Blake and Dwight on DeAndre.) Anyways, those are here along with all the other games. I broke them down by game and then totaled them for you. And if you think the Twin Towers looked bad against the Clippers...well Dwight and Jones was even worse. We've now tried every possible big man combination against the Clips except for the one I suggested BEFORE THE FIRST GAME against them. Hopefully if we have to face them again in the playoffs McHale finally goes Asik/Blake and Dwight/DeAndre. I firmly believe we'll force them to adjust out of their 2 big lineup if we do that.

Anyways, here are the results:

BLAZERS
@Portland 11/5/2013 (W)
Rockets 116 Blazers 101
-4 Asik/Howard vs. Aldridge/Lopez
+13 Asik/Howard vs Aldridge/Leonard -
(Lopez got dinged early in 3rd quarter, we toasted them when Leonard came in.)

@Portland 12/12/2013 (L)
Rockets 104 Blazers 111
-11 Howard/Jones vs. Aldridge/Lopez

@Houston 1/20/2014 (W)
Rockets 126 Blazers 113
+3 Howard/Motie vs.Aldridge/Lopez
(Jones and Asik were dinged and did not play in this one.)

@Houston 3/9/2014 (W)
Rockets 118 Blazers 113
-20 Howard/Jones vs. Aldridge/Lopez
(Bench brigade along with Howard pulled this one out. Howard was 0 for the game, which means he was +20 in his minutes on the floor without Jones.)

Season total Howard/Jones vs. Aldridge/Lopez: -31

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

SPURS
@San Antonio 11/30/2013 (W)
Rockets 112 Spurs 106
-2 Howard/Jones vs. Duncan/Splitter
(Splitter basically played behind Duncan, they were only on the floor together for a couple minutes.)

@San Antonio 12/25/2013 (W)
Rockets 111 Spurs 98
+23 Howard/Jones vs. Duncan/Splitter
(blowout on Christmas Day)


@Houston 1/28/2014 (W)
Rockets 97 Spurs 90
-9 Howard/Jones vs. Duncan/Diaw (Splitter out with shoulder injury)

Season total Howard/Jones vs. Duncan/Splitter: +21

*basically one game here since first and third games were played without really seeing the Duncan/Splitter tandem together

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

CLIPPERS
@LA 11/04/2013 (L)
Rockets 118 Clippers 137
-11 Asik/Howard vs. Blake/DeAndre

@Houston 11/09/2013 (L)
Rockets 94 Clippers 107
-12 Asik/Howard vs. Blake/DeAndre

@LA 02/26/14 (L)
Rockets 93 Clippers 101
-17 Howard/Jones vs. Blake/DeAndre

@LA 03/29/2014 (L)
Rockets 107 Clippers 118
-2 Asik/Jones vs. Blake/Deandre (Blake hurt early, Jones sick, pulled earlier)

Season total Asik/Howard vs. Blake/DeAndre: -23
Season total Howard/Jones vs. Blake/DeAndre: -19

*Asik/Howard matchups were wrong in both early games.
**Howard/Jones tandem dominated even worse by Blake/DeAndre than Asik/Howard.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

THUNDER
@OKC 12/29/2013 (L)
Rockets 86 Thunder 117
-23 Howard/Jones vs. Perk/Ibaka

@Houston 1/16/2014 (L)
Rockets 92 Thunder 104
-13 Howard/Jones vs. Perk/Ibaka

@OKC 3/11/2014 (L)
Rockets 98 Thunder 106
-7 Howard/Jones vs. Adams/Ibaka

@Houston 04/04/2014 (W)
Rockets 111 Thunder 107
-7 Jones/Asik vs. Ibaka/Adams (Dwight out)

Season total Howard/Jones vs. Ibaka/Perk/Adams: -43
Season total Asik/Jones vs. Ibaka/Perk/Adams: -7

*included both Ibaka/Adams and Ibaka/Perk because Perk and Adams are the same player, just big grinders that play D and board. Ibaka was the constant at the 4. also included Asik/Jones here as well for the last game since Dwight out. But it really doesn't matter. Their bigs being so big, and with Ibaka being such a great defensive presence and able to help off Jones, dominated us in every game.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

MAVERICKS
@Houston 11/01/2013 (W)
Rockets 113 Mavs 105
-3 Asik/Howard vs. Dirk/Dally
(less than 4 minutes of this matchup on the court)

@Dallas 11/20/2013 (L)
Rockets 120 Mavs 123
+4 Howard/Jones vs. Dirk/Dally

@Houston 12/23/2013 (L)
Rockets 104 Mavs 111
-8 Howard/Jones vs. Dirk/Dally

@Dallas 1/29/2014 (W)
Rockets 117 Mavs 115
-3 Howard/Jones vs. Dirk/Dally

Season total Howard/Jones vs. Dirk/Dally: -7

* I didn't include the Dirk/Blair combination here but if I had it would have shown an even greater disparity in favor of Dallas

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

GRIZZLIES

@Memphis 11/25/2013 (W)
Rockets 83 Grizzlies 86
-6 Howard/Jones vs. Zach/Koufas

@Houston 12/26/2013 (W)
Rockets 100 Grizzlies 92
+5 Howard/Jones vs. Zach/Koufas

@Houston 1/24/2014 (L)
Rockets 87 Grizzlies 88
+6 Howard/Jones vs. Marc/Zach

@Memphis 1/25/2014 (L)
Rockets 81 Grizzlies 99
-6 Howard/Jones vs. Marc/Zach

Season total Howard/Jones vs. Marc/Zach: 0

*Marc was hurt for the first 2 games so this is somewhat limited data. But Memphis plays big almost all the time with their 4 bigs being Marc, Zach, Koufas, and Ed Davis. Davis is probably the best matchup for Jones since the other 3 are just too big for him.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

WARRIORS
@Houston 12/6/2013 (W)
Rockets 105 Warriors 83
+16 Howard/Jones vs. Lee/Bogut

@Golden State 12/13/2013 (W)
Rockets 116 Warriors 112
+7 Howard/Jones vs. Lee/Bogut

@Golden State 02/20/2014 (L)
Rockets 99 Warriors 102
-14 Howard/Jones vs. Lee/O'Neal

Season total Howard/Jones vs. Lee/Bogut: +9
Season total Howard/Jones vs. Lee/Bogut/O'Neal: -5

*Once again, I included Lee/O'Neal along with Lee/Bogut because O'Neal is basically a 7-foot defender at this stage of his career. Him and Bogut are the same player. I doubt we face them in the playoffs and if we do this is not likely to mean much if Lee is out.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Size matters guys. Don't know if you realize it or not but Dwight/Jones is one of the smallest (if not the smallest) front lines in the league. We will be outsized severely most of the time in the playoffs.

Now that's not necessarily a bad thing if you are more highly skilled with that smaller lineup. But that's the rub. We're not. Dwight is highly skilled at what he does defensively in the paint and he's somewhat skilled offensively. But Jones isn't highly skilled on either end of the floor.

The scouting book on Dwight for many years now has been you neutralize his effect by playing big bigs on him. You get big, heavy, long 7-footers out there and you make him bang on them and shoot over them. He can't move those type players out of the post and then he's got to go over them offensively. That's a problem. And then on the other end you use that same big body to lay weight on him to keep him anchored to the floor and unable to use his springs to maximum effectiveness. When you compound that with multiple bigs defensively like OKC does or like the Clippers do....it makes it very difficult for Dwight down low.

Just another reason why I keep saying we either need to go small with Harden or Parsons at the 4 and really spread it out with shooters to give Dwight space or we're going to have to counter double big lineups with Asik and Dwight and dominate them defensively to get them out of those double big lineups. Because when we put Dwight and Jones out there against double big lineups, they are too small defensively as a tandem to defend and control the glass and the paint against those double big lineups and they are not skilled enough to win the day on the offensive end against those double big lineups. When double big lineups scrum it up against Howard and Jones we lose way more often than we win.

 

Not only is he taking a meaningless stat, but manipulating it to eliminate 3 of the 5 positions on the floor as if that tells us anything at all of value about how the TEAM plays with X player on the floor. Last time I checked the NBA is not a 2 on 2 league.

Here is a pure example of how this manipulator works. He makes a case that Harden's efficiency has gone down since Jones went into the starting lineup.

Ok..... So you're saying Harden was more efficient with the TT than right? I mean that is clearly what you are implying.

But then, go look at the Play by play on Basketball reference, and walaah.

10/30 - Vs Charlotte - 13 of Hardens 21 pts in the 4th quarter
11/1- Vs Dallas - Asik gets 2 quick fouls - 0 Pts for Harden, and then almost immediately scores 12 pts when Asik leaves and Casspi enters game
11/2 Vs Utah- Harden scores a grand total of 2 pts with TT
11/4 Vs Clippers - Harden scored 0 points with TT, and 15 total in loss
11/5 Vs Blazers - Good 1st quarter for Harden (13 pts). Might be best match-up for TT we've seen. However Harden had 4 turnovers in 1st quarter.
11/7- Harden goes 0 for 4 with TT
11/9 Vs Clippers - Harden had a grand total of 12 pts in loss. 2 pts with TT
11/11 Vs Raptors - Harden goes 1 for 1 with 1 turnover with TT in Q1.

Yeah... Harden was MUCH more efficient with the TT's starting, and he's been way worse with Jones obviously. In fact, Jones has been SOOOO bad to Harden's play that McHale decided that its best to keep Jones in the starting lineup for 73 more games.

What a joke.

 

Yeah, the score. The meaningless score statistic. :grin:

 

You are right about this. The TT is extremely situational. McHale has proved that he will think outside the box as far as line ups go. In most match ups if Jones is getting defensively manhandled I would prefer to see D-Mo over Asik because he is much quicker. But against Indiana and Memphis, teams that offensively are not going to blow you away, the TT makes perfect sense to me. Their bigs are slow, but absolute bruisers who wear their opponents down over the course of a game or a series. I highly recommend the new SI piece contrasting Memphis and Portland.

http://nba.si.com/2014/04/08/memphis-grizzlies-portland-trail-blazers-nba-playoffs/

 

The joke is your argument that the Twin Towers makes it more difficult for Harden. That argument is wrong. Harden is the same player no matter what the big arrangement. He's proven it. You have no proof of your argument that Harden is not as effective or efficient with the Twin Towers lineup. I simply showed you your argument was false because Harden's efficiency was not less when Dwight/Asik were running together at the beginning of the season.

 

What does Harden's efficiency overall have to do with anything. The only thing of relevance was how he played WITH THE F-ING TWIN TOWERS.

I never said Harden couldn't be effective over the course of a game where the TT played in, I just showed that you and your pointless argument are full of horse manure. You campaigned that Harden has been more efficient with the TT, and less effective with Jones, and I clearly showed that he actually didn't exactly dominate the game & wasn't at his best with the TT the first go around so your point is about as irrelevant as it gets.

Nba.com/leaguepass. Go check it out. You can ACTUALLY go back and watch REAL BASKETBALL. Its an amazing modern marvel.

Your "Harden is more efficient with the TT" point is complete BS so drop it. It has no relevance to your argument(mostly negative campaign against your nemesis Terrence Jones) because he wasn't good with the TT, he was good after they left the court, and Casspi, small ball, & co. went in the game.

 

Asik is definitely going to get more PT - he's playing a lot better than he did at the start of the season.

 

Harden was more efficient in the first 8 games of the season. That is a statistical and metrical fact. However, I didn't campaign about it. I simply brought it up because you were arguing that the twin towers lineup make it too difficult on Harden. I showed you it had not made it too difficult in the first 8 games because the first 8 games is the only possible proof you had that the twin towers would make it too difficult for Harden. Not to prove that the twin towers is a more efficient lineup for Harden. LOL.