I'm not going to make an effort to dignify that with an answer. You shouldn't expect anyone with a credible opinion on the subject to take it seriously, either. Gaza's situation is a unique injustice and parallels to apartheid era SA are inaccurate. Israel (with Egyptian assistance) enforces a blockade but does not make any claim to the territory itself. If you think indiscriminate rocketing of Israeli civilians is justifiable, then you have no argument other than an ethnocentric one to decry when Israel does it to Gazans and no one will expect your appeals of moral injustice to be genuine. Human life either has value or it doesn't. Humanitarian ceasefires are an excepted custom in these here parts of the woods. This is the longest these exchanges have ever gone without one. That's the opinion of the "moderate" sunni leadership (Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, UAE, etc). They see Hamas as the lest remnant of the Muslim Brotherhood that threatens their own regimes and are either being quiet or releasing standard "We deplore Israeli aggression and demand Hamas accept a cease-fire" kind of press releases. But truth be told, they hate Hamas more than they do Israel. That is the stated goal of the IDF and the focus of what Israel is trying to do there, and not too many governments have an objection to that (especially not Egypt as it affects them just as much). As the cliche goes, you don't make peace with your friends, you make peace with your enemies. But more importantly, considering they are the one that deal with Israeli officials even in peace time to receive aid, electricity, etc, Israel does have to deal with them. They aren't a sovereign state and don't enjoy even a quasi-legal status...their birth certificates say "Israel," their passports say "Israel" and they use Israeli currency and so on. When rockets and kidnapped soldiers get you more aid and more of your own guys released from Israeli prisons than the ones talking peace and arresting violent actors, it's not hard to wonder why terrorism is winning hearts and minds. As a combat veteran you should know better about asymmetrical warfare and how resistance works. Iraq was "utterly defeated" and well...you know. No matter how this ends, both Israel and Hamas will declare "victory." These wars are like the special olympics. Everyone is a winner -- at least they will claim it. Hudnas can last for generations, though, and Hamas has offered long term ones, but no one takes them that seriously. In the end, Hamas is a manageable problem from an Israeli POV and more desirable than sticking to the gameplan of supporting Abbas, evacuating the West Bank and giving up areas B and C to to the PA and living with a Palestinian state. It's also tricky, 'cause even if there was a clear objective to remove Hamas, and even if you managed to do it without killing an order of magnitude of more civillians, what then? Send 1000s of Israeli soldiers there to run things? Cart Abbas in on a Merkava tank to take over and diminish his credibility even further? Both are no go. You bomb infrastructure, try to take out a few leaders, destroy tunnels, and keep lobbing until you pressure another hudna and the rockets (most of them anyway that at least that can be accountable by Hamas) and sell it is a decisive victory to the voters to win you a bump in the polls and wait until the next time. As Israelis say, ze ma yesh (that's what there is / that's just the way it is). The army is in many ways way more forward thinking than most Israeli cabinets, but they often don't have the luxury of being sensible. I wouldn't expect any Israeli Chief of Staff to think much differently in the big picture of conducting war like this when it suddenly becomes your job to take the ball and run with it when you get that call from the PM. There's not much room for creativity between the confines of what civilian leadership both expects and tells them do. I think there's plenty of shades of grey between not liking Israel's policies and being a useful idiot for Hamas. But there's also plenty of shades of grey between being critical of Hamas and being a useful idiot for the Israeli far right. Some of the posters on this board are Palestinians and have every reason to be concerned about loss of life and the injustice their brethren in Gaza receive, and there's plenty of legit criticism to be laid in Israel's direction. Anyone with a realistic understanding of things there contributes plenty of value to the conversation and to keeping the signal-to-noise ratio bearable. Any reasonable voice deserves respect and every poster should be judged on the merits of his arguments. No one should make the mistake of concluding that supporting Palestinian right to freedom and self-determination is mutually exclusive with supporting Israeli right to defend their own lives. Those that venture into those fallacious arguments are either useful idiots or expect you to be theirs. Anyway, I would choose carefully whom you call an apologist for Hamas, but in those instances I wouldn't spare much consideration for the opinions of those that subscribe to those kinds of toxic ideas any more than I do the ones who spoil (knowingly or not) for fascism and theocracy in Israel.
We all strive not to be placed on ignore by someone as wacko as treeman. In fact I don't know which will come first, world peace or treeman's WMD discovery.
Great stuff, Deji. Repped. I've been reading emotional diatribes back and forth, both here and on FB. Glad to see something so even handed for a change. Treeman, as someone who fought in Iraq (I do remember that correctly, no?) how could you believe it's a simple issue of just eliminating the bad guys and then you win? The more militants the IDF kills, they cause more collateral damage to breed the next generation of passionate extremists. Already have, really. If military dominance alone were enough to "win", Israel would have won long, long ago. Isn't this one of the lessons of Iraq?
What's wrong with it is that they are not firing those rockets at the IDF, they are firing those rockets at civilian population areas. Those rockets are unguided and are wildly inaccurate - you have no idea what you're going to actually hit when you fire one. When you aim it at a civilian populated area, you are *purposefully* trying to kill civilians. That is quite a bit different than inflicting collateral damage (especially when your enemy - Hamas - hides among the civilian population, putting their HQ under the hospital and placing their tunnel entrances in civilian buildings). They *purposefully* try to murder civilians. That is, of course, in line with their stated goal of eliminating Israel and pushing the Jews into the sea and/or killing them all. And for you to defend it only puts your own moral depravity in display for all to see.
You do what you're told ya prick. I was a 13F - about as far from a pog in the Army as you can get without going SOF. I didn't get to choose where they sent me or what I would be doing. And you know that.
This particular one is black and white. Hamas is a terrorist organization, and the fact that you can't see that - the fact that you see any moral equivalence between them and the IDF - just tells me that you have a jacked up system of morality yourself. And of course, we all know how anti-semitic you Lefties are.
You have made some silly posts. This is one of them. Many lefties are Jewish and not really "anti-semitic." Wiping out Hamas the way Israel is doing it will do nothing. It's something that's been tried before and doesn't bring about desired results. Many thought if only Israel could get rid of the PLO then everything would be okay. PLO was gone and Hamas stepped in. If you get rid of Hamas then the next extremist group will step in, and it will on and on forever. Some people are hungry enough for revenge or foolish enough to think that somehow this will be different this time than it was the other 60 plus years when this strategy was attempted. The way to get rid of large scale extremism in a case like this is to remove the causes for those that will support the extremists. Erode the support and there will be much more desired results. But killing thousands of civilians, having discriminatory laws, not allowing supplies and medicine in to sick and suffering civilians, preventing Palestinians from earning their own living, burning down their homes, taking their land etc. will not erode support for Hamas or groups like Hamas. It will only increase the support. Time for people to try something different.
Oh god, if I never hear someone talk about POG's again it'll be too soon. I get it, make the insignificant feel special so that they do their BS jobs and feel good about it, but it's so incredibly annoying. Snipers think they are god's gift to the military, the 11B's think it's them, the 11C's think it's them, the 97E's think they are the most important people in the military, The 97B's think they are the most important because their MOS has a cool sounding title, the 88M think they are the most important people in the military, the 18 series guys think they are the most important. It's all so boring.
Hey man, newsflash: when some a*holes start shooting rockets indiscriminately into your civilian population areas, diplomacy is *NOT* an option. You cannot wait for nuanced psyops strategies to take hold and undermine the bad guys, because they are firing thousands of freaking rockets at your people. When the rockets fly, you've got to shoot back. And you need to kill as many of those a*holes as possible as fast as possible, because lives depend upon it. Don't cry to me about discriminatory laws, the blockade, etc - the Palestinians did this to themselves. Every poll done in the territories overwhelmingly shows that the people support Hamas' aims of destroying Israel - they put them there for God's sake. They can reap the fruits of their poor decision-making for all I care. The Israeli government has a duty to protect its people from the animals shooting rockets into their cities, kidnapping and murdering their civilians, digging tunnels into their territory so they can launch suicide bombings and Mumbai-style attacks. I don't fault them AT ALL for doing what they are doing, because you know what? We'd do EXACTLY the same thing if people were shooting rockets at us. What if the government of Mexico started launching rockets indiscriminately into our cities? What do you think we'd do? We'd respond OVERWHELMINGLY with force, we'd seal that border as tight as humanly possible and blockade the crap out of it, we'd kill metric boatloads of people, and we wouldn't stop until the USMC and the US Army were sitting pretty in Mexico City again on top of a pile of the bodies of the people who were responsible for it. And we wouldn't stop just because the enemy hid behind their civilians and dared us to do it. And you know what? We wouldn't wring our hands about who would replace that Mexican government, either, because whoever it was they couldn't be any worse than the a*holes who were shooting rockets at us. It doesn't get worse than people who are fanatically trying to murder your entire race, and replacing them is not something you avoid, because at least you killed some of the ba*tards along the way. At any rate, if Hamas is wiped out then the Gazans will simply have little choice but to turn to Abbas and the PA - which would be a better outcome than Hamas.
Treeman you are like a guy who watched only the latest episode, and start making a judgement for the entire series If u were a soldier u know that no one won a war, it's continues battles, been this way since centuries. Jew persecution of christians, then the opposite , then things went on &on to this day with no near end in sight.
What are you talking about? You're in favor of collective punishment? Discriminating on water allotment, denying resources, medicine, charging more for Palestinians to buy water than Israelis etc. doesn't punish those that are guilty. Here's a newsflash for you. Killing thousands of civilians, discriminating, denying people access to resources, kicking innocents out of their homes and stealing their land doesn't protect Israeli citizens either. It's been attempted for decades and we see where it has gotten Israel. We've seen the results. You can keep advocating for continued attempts at the same stupid strategies they've been doing for decades, but I'm going to hope that Israel could try something different. I'd actually like peace and stability for Israel rather than this cycle of violence. I'm sorry that you are in favor of collective punishment, and continuing a policy that has never ever worked for Israel. But at least it's plain where you stand. Sadly the place where you stand is barely civilized. Israel does have a right to defend themselves. So do the Palestinians. Israel has lost 3 civilians. The Palestinians have lost thousands. How the Israelis and Palestinians both have chosen to protect their civilians has been unsuccessful. I wish they'd both try a different approach. Arguing what the Americans would do is also a ridiculous argument. As has been pointed out, the American strategy of military strikes against terrorists hasn't been successful either. As has been pointed out to you, the U.S. wiped the Iraqi armed forces and infrastructure. It didn't work out too well there. Now ISIS is there going crazy. Perhaps if the U.S. had worried a little more about who would take over after their military actions we wouldn't be in this mess. The U.S. should do their best to erode support for terrorist organizations. Killing a bunch of terrorists seems great and might even make us feel like we're really taking action. We may even have the right to do that. But sadly the way it's been done hasn't helped wipe out terrorism. They are just replaced by different radicals. The U.S. should also try a different strategy so bringing up what the U.S. would do doesn't really add anything to your argument.
Riiight and Jews going on privately held Palestinian land and setting up settlements is not an act of war? Moving 300,000 Jews onto primarily stolen private land in the West Bank is peachy? 200,000 in East Jerusalem? Building roads only accessible through the settlements in ok? Allowing gun ownership to Jews but not Muslims in the West Bank is alright? Israel half the time claiming the settlements are illegal, yet having subsidized their very building and survival is alright... all the time relying on the Israeli army to keep the sand folks at bay? Yeah, Hamas is bad (elected in 2006 mind you) and should be eradicated from the planet.... But there is a reason the exist, and it has to do with Palestinians being treated like third class citizens. If you justify Israel in the West Bank because of 1967, so be it but to act like Israel is the only one being terrorized is really myopic.
You are delusional FB. "Collective punishment" - that is fantasy. That is not what is going on at all. The Israelis are a SPECIAL bunch. They have been under near-constant attack for over 60 years now. They are facing an enemy that will settle for nothing less than complete annihilation. There is no peace to be had with fanatical muslims - only everlasting war until one side is done. There is no reconciliation to be had with the likes of Hamas. There is no point in negotiating with people who pledge your complete annihilation and eradication. You try to play this sob story for the Palestinians by quoting the "only 3 Israeli civilians" have died - but that is ONLY because Iron Dome works, not for lack of trying on the Palestinians' part. Don't fault the Israelis for being competent - it has no moral relevance. You excuse the Palestinians' moral depravity in purposefully targeting civilians. Your entire argument boils down to "well, they haven't been treated well, so they have a right to murder civilians". You COMPLETELY ignore the context of intent. Do you think that if the Israelis wanted to they could kill every last Palestinian in Gaza and the West Bank? Of course they could. But they don't want to. Now reverse that: Do you think the Palestinians could kill every Jew in Israel? If they could there would be no Jews left. Loot at what ISIS is doing in Mosul. If you think that Hamas and ISIS are that different, then you don't understand either - they only differ on methods and timetables, but the end goal is the same. They are eliminationists. The Israelis CANNOT deal with Hamas. There is nothing to talk about when the organization you're negotiating with wants you all dead as it's ultimate goal. Hamas has to be destroyed/replaced. You whine about the "peace process", but there can be no peace process as long as Hamas is in control of Gaza. F* the "ceasefire. Let Israel do what it needs to do, and the entire region - and the Palestinian people - will be better off in the long run for it. There will be NO peace as long as islamic nutcases are controlling governments there.
Right. And the terrorists in the IDF know exactly what they're hitting - women and children. And get out of here with that HQ under hospitals bull****. There is no proof of this just like there was no proof of Hamas kidnapping those teens.
Dude you just reminded me of this. Love this song. Rep for enthusiasm. <object width="420" height="315"><param name="movie" value="//www.youtube.com/v/EpMuCrbxE8A?hl=en_US&version=3"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="//www.youtube.com/v/EpMuCrbxE8A?hl=en_US&version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="420" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>
You spelled out collective punishment when saying that Palestinian civilians brought it all on themselves because they voted in Hamas even though less than half of them voted fro Hamas. What you mentioned is collective punishment. I'm happy the iron dome works. I fault Hamas for shooting rockets, for suicide bombings and any terrorism they do. But don't act like Israelis are the only ones that have a right to defend or seek justice for attacks on their civilians. The IDF intentionally used Palestinian children as human shields and when Israel found out about it, they basically did nothing about it at all. I don't know which is worse, oppressing people, stealing their land, making laws that discriminate against them, not allowing them to earn a living, occasionally using Palestinian children as human shields, keeping the Palestinian sick from getting medicine etc. (Israel does all of these things and has for decades) or Targeting civilians, housing their munitions near civilians knowing they will be struck and die, kidnapping, etc. (Hamas does all of these things and did them before they were even elected) What I do know is that there are things on both of those lists that both sides could stop doing that would probably help each side with the goals they have. I don't excuse the moral depravity of the Palestinians. I don't claim they have the right to murder civilians. You are just making that up. Not one post I've made in any thread ever says that is justified or okay. You ARE MAKING UP UNTRUTHFUL THINGS. Israel doesn't have to kill as many civilians as they do. They have troops on the ground. When the UN tells Israel there are children and no weapons in a school and Israel bombs the hell out of it anyway, They aren't doing everything in their power to avoid civilian casualties. If after hearing from the UN they were still determined to go after that sight then use a ground team of soldiers and not bombs and missiles that will kill all of the innocent people there. Since Israel doesn't target civilians yet Hamas houses their weapons and rockets in civilian areas it would make since if the Palestinians lost hundreds of civilians compared to the 3 that Israel has lost. But more than 1300 vs. 3 is not acceptable. I'm glad that Israel has the Iron Dome that works. I wish the Palestinians had something that would protect their civilians as well. Again that tactic has been tried, and has led Israel to where it is now. It's a tactic that has proven not to work. The best way to make Hamas ineffective is to reduce the support for them rather than carrying out actions that build support for them. If I'm wrong about that idea, Israel could always go back to bombing Gaza, cutting off their access to water, fertile land, jobs, medicine, and blowing up thousands of civilians. They can always go back to that if a couple of decades of a more moral and peaceful approach doesn't work. The same is true for the Palestinians who need to stop targeting civilians, kidnapping, and using terrorism. It hasn't gotten them peace, a sustainable land or removed the oppression they have from them. It does allow Israel to justify all of the discrimination and oppression they put on the Palestinians. They should also try something different.
USMC or the U.S. Army or NATO forces in generally wouldn't conduct airstrikes upon a bomb shelter that was being actively used by civilians and the UN called in 17 times with exact coordinates and repeatedly warned not to attack even if weapons were stored in the shelter. Sorry buddy, but this is where my personal experience of actually participating in infantry level combat comes in to play over yours. My personal experience of actually witnessing first hand the number of hurdles that needed to be jumped and the level of scrutiny and precautions it took to call in a 9 line CAS and having that CAS granted gives me a conclusion that the IDF do not take similar precautions. The IDF is not infallible. Stop treating them as if they were.
