Where does James Harden rate All Time in shooting guards ?

Those defensive win share stats you use are garbage. It's like someone saying Nolan Ryan wasn't good bc of his record.

Also, never said he's a top 10 player of all time.... But his body if work at SG has been better than Hardens so far.

 

It's actually the opposite. Talking up Kobe based on intangibles and ignoring the actual stats is similar to talking up Andy Pettitte over Nolan Ryan due to playoff performance, overall wins, and ringz.

If you look at performance based metrics, Kobe simply can't compare to Harden's level. It's simply not a fair comparison for Kobe and is setting him up to look bad. Kobe simply never reached the levels of play that Harden has been at for a few seasons now.

 

Kobe was nowhere near the best defensive players to play the game.

That is absolute horseshit.

 

You realize the game has changed, right? Comparing Hardens stats to Kobe's... Thats like saying Kirk Cousins is better than John Elway bc... Stats.

Again, Harden is an amazing offensive player, but he will also be known as one or the weakest defenders on the court every time he steps out there. Can't be considered better than a lot of players bc of that reason alone.

But if there is a thread "who's the best offensive SG of all time"... Then you'd be spot on.

 

We're talking about shooting guards. How many SGs were better than him defensively?

 

He needs a ring this season. Kobe isn't a better player but Kobe's toughness counts in the evaluation.

Believe me I hate Kobe and love James

 

LOL it seems like you are looking for any excuse to prop up Kobe....

It's obvious the game has changed, it's a much more efficient league these days and that's why Harden's scoring efficiency even surpasses MJ's (largely due to better shot selection by Harden and Harden being a much better 3 point shooter)...but it's a hell of a lot closer than the awful chucker you wish to make excuses for. Also, when you look at things like win shares or VORP it shows MJ still easily ahead of Harden....because MJ is clearly ahead of Harden.

Basically you are trying to talk up the Russell Westbrick of a different era despite what the numbers say.

 

If Westbrook played Kobe defense, he'd easily be considered a better player than Harden. That's essentially what I'm saying here. Inefficient offensive players that are still very good, but Westbrook defense blows while Kobe is on a different planet than most who played the position.

 

chucker/stat-padder WB playing "Kobe-level defense" will still nueter down Oladipo, Adams, & Kanter. they'll still be 50 wins at the most compare to Harden & co's 55 wins

just curious, what's farthest did chucker Kobe and his defense take the Lakers when he didn't have either Shaq or Gasol/Odom

how many wins in the reg season and how far in the playoffs?

 

just curious, what's the farthest did better Kobe and his "toughness" take the Lakers when he didn't have either Shaq or Gasol/Odom

how many wins in the reg season and how far in the playoffs?

 

Wait, so now Kobe won bc of Gasol? That's like saying how many rings did Jordan win without Pippen/Rodman?

If you actually think Kobe didn't lead his teams to the ring twice after Shaq left, then I'd suggest going back and watching.

 

He already is by people who look at Westbrick like you look at Kobe.....that's why he won the MVP. Actual performance doesn't matter to those types given that even when they are confronted with the evidence that destroys their narrative they simply ignore it and double down....you know like when I pointed out how even when you factor in defense, Harden was superior to Kobe, but not players actually better than him like Jordan so the "different eras" excuse falls flat.

You merely want to believe that Kobe was awesome despite evidence to the contrary, so you are going to believe it. I've talked with many Thunder fans who feel that way about Westbrick.

 

There's a wide spread myth surrounding Kobe's defense.

The fact is Kobe only played great defense during his years with Shaq, where he didn't have to carry massive amounts of burden on offense and stay laser sharp focused on D. But after they split up and Kobe became the main scoring option on his team, his defense significantly worsened to the point where it was a joke that he even made All-defensive teams.

Also, Kobe was a good 1-1 defender (where Harden isn't too shabby himself), but pretty bad team defender.

Don't just take my word for it, this is what Phil Jackson had to say about Kobe's defense:

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- “Kobe’s defense, to be accurate, has faltered in recent years, despite his presence on the league’s all-defensive team. The voters have been seduced by his remarkable athleticism and spectacular steals, but he hasn’t played sound, fundamental defense.

"Mesmerized by the ball, he’s gambled too frequently, putting us out of position, forcing rotations that leave a man wide open, and doesn’t keep his feet on the ground.”

Jackson said this in his book “The Last Season: A Team in Search of Its Soul.”
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There are also statistical arguments that can be made in favor of Kobe being an overrated defender. Here's the link if you are interested:

https://asubstituteforwar.wordpress...ryant-the-most-overrated-defender-imaginable/


I'm not saying there isn't a significant gap between Kobe and Harden's defense because there is, but it's not as large as most people might think.

 

first why do you refuse to answer this:

just curious, what's farthest did chucker Kobe and his defense take the Lakers when he didn't have either Shaq or Gasol/Odom

how many wins in the reg season and how far in the playoffs?

second, you even think MVP Harden this year couldn't have "led" Gasol and won 2 chips if he replaced Kobe in 09 and 10?

 

Westbrook will never win anything. Kobe proved his status by winning without Shaq.

Again, your defense stat numbers are horseshit. Harden is terrible... While Kobe was arguably top 2 all time at SG.

Having said all that... I hated Kobe through his entire career, but I don't let bias get in the way of reasoning.

 

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/

Look at the last category on the left, do you see Kobe's name there during any of the seasons where the Lakers won the championship? Now sure, you can ignore the regular season and just focus on the playoffs and you could see Kobe slightly ahead of Pau on that first post Shaq championship, but Pau was significantly ahead of him the second time around.

So in short, you can say that Kobe was the best player on his team during the playoffs for one championship run during his entire career.....but it was Shaq or Pau every other championship year.

 

A lot of those quotes have to do near the end of Kobe's career. That's not really fair, is it?

 

That book by Phil Jackson came out in 2004... which means he wrote it before 2004.

 

He would if he was put on the stacked teams that Kobe was. On teams that could carry him the way Kobe was. I know that during Kobe's time people were much easier to influence by media narratives and that's what I blame for those who still overrate Kobe.....but it doesn't make it right. Kobe was Westbrook before Westbrook was Westbrook. Nothing more.

 

Not sure what category you're referring to with the link.