Where does James Harden rate All Time in shooting guards ?

so we're sure harden wasn't the issue with harden-howard

most people are pretty sure kobe was the problem with kobe-shaq

and pat riley ran off shaq because how old and how injure prone was shaq that time again?

 

Howard was a scrub that refused to play the style of basketball that he was best at and that the team wanted him to play. He ran himself off, Harden had nothing to do with it.

Even if you stick to the numbers, there's simply no comparing Kobe to Harden because Harden is just that much better. The better discussion is who is better between Clyde Drexler and Kobe Bryant.

 

this

regular season, the less the superstars, the more valuable the wins are

playoffs, the less the superstars, the more difficult it is to win

 

He's def behind MJ, Kobe, and Wade.

gonna need some great playoff runs for him to be get in that top 3.

 

Those might all be true.

But my points stand:

1. You can't call Kobe an inefficient chucker and not apply the same label to Harden if one's shooting % is better (for the record, I wouldn't apply the label to either).

2. You can't say Harden is a better defensive player than Kobe Bryant.

3. You can't discount Kobe Bryant for winning 2 championships without Shaq. Matter of fact, you can't not give Bryant credit for the 3 runs in the 2000s. Especially 2001. There's no way the Lakers go 15-1 in the postseason if Bryant is not on that team. No way.

You want to say Harden is better than Bryant, fine. Personally, I would put it as Jordan 1, Bryant 2, and Wade 3a, with Harden 3b. Wade has proven it in the playoffs on the biggest stage, unlike Harden.

And I don't have any player in the NBA who is my favorite other than Harden. Generally, my favorite player in the NBA is the best player on the Rockets. That's simply b/c that player can have the greatest impact on the success of my favorite team.

So, my favorite players have been Hakeem, Drexler, Steve Francis, Yao, T-Mac, Kevin Martin, and James Harden, depending on the year.

But Harden is not yet better than Bryant. And anything other than Bryant as a top 5 shooting guard is just contrarianism at its finest.

 

If you don't have Kobe as #2 then you just plane hate the guy. Chucker or not the guy had the killer instinct to win games.

 

1. Is Harden better defensively? No.
2. Does Harden have a better shooting percentage? No.
3. Does Harden have a better shooting percentage in the playoffs? No- Bryant is at 44% and Harden is at 42%.

Free Throws: Harden 85%, Bryant 83%
3 Point %: Harden 36%, Bryant 33%
Rebounds: Bryant 5.2, Harden 5.0
Blocked Shots: Bryant 0.5, Harden 0.4
Steals: Harden 1.5, Bryant 1.4
Turnovers: Bryant 3.0, Harden 3.4

 

1. Is harden better overall? Yes
2. Does Harden have higher TS% and eFG% (you know, the metrics that matter when talking about efficiency)? Yes, by a LOT
3. Has Harden been carried by better players nearly his entire career like Kobe was? No.

Just as an aside, you bringing up FG% is a lot like someone talking about batting average and ignoring OPS. You've gotta get with the times, talking outdated metrics in 2017 is just inexcusable.

 

Lol, without a doubt on that... I don't think Klay could do it on his own like Harden has, now that Harden has a team and chemistry (w/ a player like CP3), also a coach that doesn't just clap... The NBA should take notice, or not, hahaha, this is looking like a hell of a good combo so far, can't leave Harden or CP3. This team is a lot of fun to watch, actually closing games.

 

Kobe's a beast but on of the most overrated players ever, still. Harden's best seasons have surpassed Kobe's, IMO, he just doesn't have the hardware/rings to back it up. Kobe has never been close to the passer Harden has turned into, and Harden's efficiency is better, and he has had less help.

Three years ago, wouldn't have thought Harden would rise as far as he has, but if he keeps it up, he'll have a pretty historic career. Wonder where he could end up up in All-Time rankings.

 

Agreed. People confuse rings with greatness. 99.999% of players with rings are not all time greats. Kobe is one of the most overrated players because of his volume stats and the fact that he played in a top media market. Look at the love Lonzo Ball gets for being in LA and he's neither the best rookie (Kuzma) or Point Guard (Clarkson) on his OWN team.

Empirically, Harden is superior to Kobe, rings or not.

 

Devil's advocate argument for Kobe - he was playing in an era where defense was much tougher on guards.

 

harden has never been the defender kobe was.

harden has crashed and burned more times than kobe has against inferior teams in the playoffs.

 

LOL, I mean, come on, Harden's my favorite player, but he's not at this point better than Kobe was defensively.
eFG is 52% for Harden and 48% for Bryant. That's better- that's not a LOT better. I have to look up the other.

Many of the great players in the NBA have had the benefit of playing with others who helped make their game better. Kareem with Magic, LeBron with Wade, Jordan with Pippen, etc. Jordan did not start winning 'ships until Pippen and Rodman came on board. I know- I remember watching the Pistons-Bulls matchups, and the reason Detroit took them out is that they had a much superior all-around team with Dumars, Laimbeer (yes, he was a good outside shooter), James Edwards, the microwave, etc.

Anyway, all of this matters not. We know how it is with you and certain players, Bobby. You have this thing against them that borders on irrationality. It is completely rational for someone to say Harden is better than Kobe, or to list a top 5 as Jordan, Wade, Harden, Drexler, and Kobe. Although debatable.

Anything other than putting Kobe Bryant in a top 5 of all-time shooting guards- and I would say top 3, but let's say top 5- is just someone who's making it all about them rather than what really is. Unfortunately, that's where you are.

 

I could even buy maybe putting Bryant as #5, although I don't agree.

But anything outside of that is just someone who's cobbling together some BS narrative.

 

First of all, comparing Lonzo Ball to Kobe Bryant in any way, shape or form is absurd. Just stop.

Second, if a guy has volume stats b/c he happened to survive in the league for 15+ years, you have to give him credit. I give Robert Parish credit for this as well. That's just how it is. Just as it's unfair to rank oft-injured Grant Hill low due to his low-volume numbers. But that's how it is.

The media market narrative is overplayed. You may not like the hype of the Lakers, as do I, but Kobe Bryant was going to be a great player no matter where he played.

Rings are overrated- when you apply them to someone like Luc Longley, or Rick Fox, or Tiago Splitter. They're not if the player is the best or 2nd best player.

As much as I hate to admit it... and believe me, I hate this guy more than anyone, Scottie Pippen is an all-time great. I watched all the Bulls championship runs, and he was simply great. He defended all 5 positions, he made clutch shots... he was a force. He carried them in 1994, and he played great in Portland as well. It makes me ill to say all this, but truth is truth.

 

I think Jordan is a clear #1.

Kobe Bryant is the most "Jordan-like" of the remaining players -- super athletic, capable of crazy scoring outbursts, high basketball IQ, alpha-dog personality. The skill-level and personality perhaps elevates him in some people's minds beyond where his level of sustained play over the course of a season deserves.

Definitely a very polarizing player. I always rooted against him, honestly, and I've had more debates with Kobe-fanatics on the internet then I care to admit. But looking back at his career as a whole, I can't not put him in the top 5, and I think a pretty good argument can be made than he's #2. I say that will full awareness of what all the advanced stats say.

 

I showed you that Kobe doesn't compare to Harden, that Harden was easily the better overall player and I showed you numbers that proved that Kobe was an inefficient chucker....that would mean that Kobe doesn't belong in this conversation given that the conversation is where Harden ranks all time among SG's. A player that is obviously inferior to Harden has no place in that conversation. The conversation isn't about if Kobe is better than Clyde Drexler or whatever, it's about Harden.

I'm not sure how that's hard to understand or even controversial.

 

Are you seriously using FG% as evidence in an argument?

 

I hate the Lakers, and their superficial fans. **** them.

But I saw Kobe Bryant up close in the playoffs. It was in Houston- game 3, I want to say? And Trevor Ariza was on the Lakers. Battier tried, but he just couldn't stop Kobe. The only other player I saw who was that great against us was James Worthy in .... 1990? Man, I'm forgetting.

Anyway, yes Kobe #2, or #3 maybe. BobbyTheGreat's contention that he is not even top 5 is senility. Or, to be fair, that Harden is superior to Kobe offensively. I'll be the first to admit that his % are better, and therefore you can certainly make a case for Harden being better. But not significantly better. And that's only on the offensive side of it. Completely discounts defense.

But, that's fine. There are a few people who are going to say that Harden is superior to Kobe. And then there's the other 99.8% of us.