Where does Kidd rank among the all-time PGs?

Kidd is probably top 5 for me

As for Nash, he is the single worst defender of his generation, as good as he was on offense (being a great passer and shooter) he was equally as bad on defense

 

I honestly don't remember Kidd younger days.

Kidd on the suns is a blur.

I remember Kidd's first stint in Dallas.

The NJ days I didn't get to see much.

He doesn't stand out for me for some reason.

 

Watch Jose Calderon or Jonny Flynn for a few defensive possessions, and I can pretty much guarantee you that you'll form a different opinion.

Last post on Nash, but you guys realize that he's less than a year younger than Kidd and led the league in assists this year, right?

 

Stockton was great at being consistent. But Isiah was CLEARLY a better player and didn't need a Karl Malone to make him great. You're talking about a player who single handedly willed his team on one ankle in the 4th quarter. Isiah wasn't waiting on pick n roll because he didn't need it to get a open shot. No comparison

 

Here are his yearly assist averages before going to New York: 5.6, 7, 7.4, 6.7, 5.6.

Explain how he averaged 5 apg for his career.

 

I'd rather have Nash than Kidd.

The guy carried teams with his scoring and assists.

Kidd has never been a guy that could take the game over like Nash could. He was an average scorer.

 

Looks like we have a difference of opinion, and i respect that. Malone didn't help Stockton get all those steals though.

Isiah Thomas Career 979(G) 971(GS) 36.3(MPG) .452(FG%) .290(3PT%)
.759(FT%) 1.00(OFF) 2.60(DEF) 3.60(RPG) 9.3(APG) 1.90(SPG) .25(BPG)
3.76(TO) 3.00(PF) 19.2(PPG)

John Stockton Career 1,504(G) 1,300(GS) 31.8(MPG) .515(FG%) .384(3PT%)
.826(FT%) .60(OFF) 2.10(DEF) 2.70(RPG) 10.5(APG) 2.17(SPG) .21(BPG)
2.82(TO) 2.60(PF) 13.1(PPG)

I think we can look at and compare stats here in context because both players had their primes in similar eras. To me, a great PG can handle the ball, pass, shoot the three or mid range, play defense, and create extra posessions through steals or forced turnovers. Since the argument here is about point guards, I think Stockton clearly DOMINATES all of these areas. FG% higher, 3pt% insanely higher, almost 10%. I think it is undisputed that stockton was a better shooter.

Not fair to compare assists because Stockton was the greatest in the game and is the all time leader in assists. Undisputed once again. You want your PG to be clutch at the line and the go to guy in closing out games. Once again, advantage Stockton. Advantage Iaiah in rebounding, getting his team extra posessions. But, this is offset by Isiah's turnovers per game in comparison to Stockton's.

I concede Isiah is clearly a better scorer, but stockton's SPG should make up for that. So once again, I say all in all Stockton is a better overall PG in the context of comparing true PG's. Isiah was a better scorer, yes. But pound for pound, i.e. overall I take Stockton all dang day.

 

I take it back, that was my second to last post on Nash.

Let's be real, D'Antoni's system is basically playing at an extremely fast pace and running a bunch of spread pick and rolls.

In the seven years since Nash signed with the Suns, teams across the NBA averaged approximately 91.7 possessions per 48 minutes. In that same time frame, the Suns averaged approximately 95.8 possessions per 48 minutes.

Over those seven years, Nash averaged around 11 assists per game. Normalize that for a league average 91.7 possessions and he would have averaged 10.5 assists per game. Not much of a drop-off (incidentally, considering the slow pace the Hornets played at, it makes Chris Paul's assist numbers that much more incredible)

In Dallas, his assist numbers were lower because he was sharing the ball with Nowitzki and Finley. Going to Phoenix didn't make him a product of a system, it showed the basketball world what he could really do in a leading role.

 

Isaiah Thomas was not clearly a better player than John Stockton. The only real advantage he had over Stockton was his scoring. I guess he was a better rebounder, but neither player impacted the game much in that regard. And he was arguably and even bigger cheapshot artist.

 

John Stockton lead the league in assists for nearly a decade. 9 out of 10 years.

He also boasts 2 of the top 10 best ever seasons in steals; no other player other than Alvin Robertson can claim 2 out more.

You can say what you want about John Stockton, but nobody dominated the position like he did. Nobody.

Even Michael Jordon never had a run of 9 straight scoring titles.

John Stockton, is/was and will be the greatest pure pg this game has ever seen.

 

I think Kidd is definitely top 5
Magic Johnson
John Stockton
Oscar Robertson
Jason Kidd
Steve Nash

 

jason kidd over nash every single time.

kidd is a triple double machine. he lead a sucky NJ team to 2 NBA finals and made all stars out of kmart and jefferson.

back when he was a free agent i wanted him to come to houston and start over brooks.

 

I dont think that's necessarily true... Nash won 2 MVPs based on what he brought to the team OFFENSIVELY. Kidd has shown all throughout his career that had ALL AROUND skill level - getting his teammates good looks, excellent passer, rebounder, as well as defender.

Just look at the finals... if Nash replaced Kidd, Wade and Lebron would have had a field day! There were many times during the finals when Kidd was guarding Wade or Lebron. If Nash had to defend either of those two, you would probably see 30+ from both players in each game.

All-time greats, IMO arent measured based on how many MVPs you can win, but rather accomplishments and overall success in the NBA. And other than those two MVPs, great shooter and passer, Nash hasn't done anything.

Kidd - see his accomplishments in the OP's first post including 3 trips to the finals. Unfortunately, they ran into Shaq's Lakers, and Duncan's Spurs in the finals.

Kidd may not go down as a top 5pg, but for sure top 6. Nash may be top 10 at best.

 

For the majority of his career, Kidd has been a subpar shooter. Nash's deficiencies (rebounding/defense) can be masked by defensive big men (like Mutombo/Chandler). There's no way to hide a broken shot.

Yes, look at the finals. Did you see how often the offense stalled when Dirk was on the bench and Kidd was on the floor? Kidd can't create his own shot.

And like I said before, having bigs like Chandler/Haywood (and even Cardinal) will mitigate Nash's defensive flaws.

Seriously? "Other than those two MVP's"? I think you're dismissing MVP's a little too quickly...

How many players have multiple MVP's?

So you're penalizing Nash for playing in the tougher conference? Kidd didn't meet the Spurs until the finals. Nash had to face them en route to the finals and were eliminated by the Spurs twice (Spurs were eventual champions both times). Back when Kidd was in New Jersey, the Eastern Conference was a joke. The 2nd time Kidd went to the finals, they only won 49 games.

 

1. Magic
2. Big O
3. Isiah
4. Stockton
5. Chris Paul
6. Bob Cousy
7. Gary Payton
8. Nate Archibald
9. Walt Frazier
10. Deron Williams
11. Kevin Johnson
12. Jason Kidd
13. Steve Nash
14. Derrick Rose


Derrick Rose will probably be top 10 when it's all said and done. I know for a fact Chris Paul and Deron will be.

 

Nearly every game before wade became a passer he scored 30 plus or nearly that.

 

Bob Cousy is not getting near enough love in this thread. He was not only a great PG, he revolutionized his position. To do some of the things he was doing when he did it is nothing short of remarkable. He popularized the fast break in a time of set shooters. He was Pistol before Pete and Magic before Earvin. Two of my criteria when ranking "greatest" are did they change the way the game or their position is played and did they have a societal impact on the public image of the game for the better? When you are looking at the potential best PGs, I think only two guys meet those two criteria, Magic and Cousy. That doesn't mean Cousy is necessarily the greatest or second, but when you factor in what he did on the court along with the larger influence he had, I don't see that there is anyway he is not easily Top 5. Those who fail to include him on a list in favor of more recent guys are showing your lack of basketball knowledge and under-appreciating the societal influences.

10 years in a row First Team All-NBA, 1 MVP, 13 All-Star games, 8 years straight the NBA leader in assists, still (still!) 15th in career assists.

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/YZcxYUCQOZI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Incidentally, only four PGs have ever won the MVP. Magic, Oscar, Cousy and, um, Nash.

 

PG Ratings:

1. Magic Johnson
2. John Stockton
3. Jason Kidd
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Steve Nash
6. Gary Payton
7. Chris Paul
8. Isiah Thomas
9. Jerry West
10.Bob Cousy

 

I haven't seen Big O play so I dunno how good the triple double season, he might have been competing with unathletic white boys for all I know. Excluding the Big O I'll put J-Kidd right behind Magic. The dude's pretty much your ideal pg.