You can't really judge anything. PGs are never the anchors of a team's defence. Nash at his prime was ran by a no-d-system coach named D'antoni and had a no D big man in Amare. It's just isn't fair to generalize that because of Nash, his whole team sucks on D. Plus, IMO pg's defense can be overrated, as long as you are not playing lazy and runs a good defensive system where you funnel the drivers to the big men, you are pretty much set defensively. If you add Nash to the Chicago team right now, their defense would still be pretty good. Nash is weaker than most guard, and not as quick laterally. He does play hard on defense, which most of the times are acceptable and not as bad as people exagerates it to be.
I'm going to put Kidd above Nash. I like both players a lot but for a team game Kidd brings more to the table in terms of defense. I'm also biased since I went to Cal at the sametime that Kidd was there and I have great memories of when Cal knocked off the Duke when they had already won two NCAA championships and everyone was predicting a third. As a Cal Alum. I also put Kevin Johnson up there too.
They don't call him the Glove for nothing... the only PG ever to win the DPOY award. NBA All defensive FIRST team 9 times, tied for the record. Not to mention he had more than 20,000 points and close to 9,000 assists. Kidd took NJ to the Finals when the EC was a joke. I think a lot of this has to do with him being half-white, if he was fully black he wouldn't be this gassed up on the BBS. If I had to do my list again, I'd probably put Nash above him.
Looking at the players overall while Paul is a better defender than Nash I think Nash is better overall than Paul. Kidd while not as good at offense as Nash I think is better overall than Nash. I'm not looking at just one factor, if I was just looking at D I would take Gary Payton or Michael Cooper over any of the above.
Why do you always bring race into everything? A great player is a great player no matter what his skin tone is.
Just curious, if you and others who agree with this line of thinking, would apply this same standard when ranking Bill Russell amongst centers? I mean, he really wasn't known for his prowess on the offensive end, and probably wouldn't even get a mention when talking about offensive big men. Kidd was an absolutely terrible shooter for much of his career and Nash was an absolutely terrible defender. I don't really think one outweighs the other. I still think people seriously overrate the importance of perimeter defense. I'd say its a distant third in importance to team defense and interior defense.
You've got to be kidding yourself if you don't think Nash's terrible defense doesn't FAR FAR FAR outweigh Kidd's shooting. Kidd's shooting even early in his career would have been considered decent in comparison to Nash's pathetic defense. Furthermore, I think you're terribly underrating the importance of perimeter defense. The peremiter defense of the Heat was the only reason why the series wasn't a sweep. Kidd's peremiter defense was instrumental in shutting down Kobe, making thing difficult for Durant and keeping Wade and Bron at bay. Locking down the perimeter leads to better team defense which in turn helps shut down the interior. The point is it all starts from the perimeter.
Ummm wrong on the black / white thing. I'm asian so I don't have a rooting interest in skin color whether it be green, blue, or red.
As far as assist go, Cousy and Oscar could crush everyone else. 1950s to 1980s, if a player received the ball and took one dribble, the passer was NOT awarded an assist. 1980s to present: Along with "scorekeeper's discretion", this guideline was given: if a player receives a pass and makes a direct line to the basket, without altering his course due to a defender, then the passer receives an assists. That could come from a fast break or simply an open lane. Oscar Robertson is the greatest point guard (and possibly player ever, coaches back in 2000 voted for him as the best ever . . . not MJ; Magic; Wilt; Bird; Kareem; or West). He could score, like an MJ, Gervin, or Kobe. He also did not take a heavy amount of shots (Iverson, LeBron, VC, and Melo all are ahead of him). Very smooth on film, yet he did have post game he relied heavily upon. 6,5 and could've weighed anywhere from 205 to 220. Like Wilt or even Jerry West, his game would actually translate well to the modern NBA. I have to say again that it depends on how much better or worse they would be, but I'm saying more in the sense of being a fairly good to all-star level starter, maybe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Robertson (220) http://www.nba.com/history/robertson_bio.html (210) http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/roberos01.html (205) http://www.databasebasketball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=roberos01 (205) If he, Frazier, Cousy, and few others were awarded assists, like players are today, both would easily have average over 14 assist per game and even reached 20 in some years. Though in Oscar's case, his assist numbers were up to par with any present day point guard. Most of the other great point guards never possessed that kind of scoring ability either. He's also the only guard to average 10 rebounds in history, only triple double average for a season. 1. Magic Johnson 2. Oscar Robertson 3. Bob Cousy (travesty people don't think much of him these days, but like I mentioned earlier, his assist would be much higher in later NBA periods) 4. Isiah Thomas (Amazing how he is not appearing alot of these top 5 list. Even though, he is the only PG over the last 20 years to lead his team to a title. Also, I believe outside of 93-95 Rockets, they had one of the tougher runs to an NBA title. He's sort of been shafted a good bit in his active and post career, you could say he was not a very like-able player equally by fans and peers. It didn't make things any better even in 91, when it was alleged a few NBA players kept Isiah off the US Olympic team. In the next game against the Jazz, he promptly went out and showed Stockton. ). 5. John Stockton 5 (tie). Walt Frazier, again you can't look primarily at the numbers. Frazier is one of those players who would have more assist in later periods. Also, Frazier actually won two titles as well. While, the league was becoming a bit more competitive . . .they had to battle the Celtics, Bucks, Lakers, and Bullets for titles. 7. Chris Paul (when it is all said and done I think he'll be better than Kidd, Nash, and Payton, every weakness those players had I think he doesn't, I also think he has had a better start to his career than all 3, and he has yet to play on a talented roster like the other 3). The last spots are between Jason Kidd; Gary Payton, Steve Nash, Kevin Johnson, Nate Archibald, Fat Lever, and Maurice Cheeks. There's not enough separation between them as players to really be completely right or wrong. Some people keep pointing out Nash's MVPs, look at what era he played in, just as Jason Kidd getting to the Finals, same thing (the East probably was at it's weakest point in history). You'd be out of your mind to think that these other point guards (in their prime) could not duplicate the same things. Gary Payton or Kevin Johnson (in their better years) matched with 04-05 Suns, instead Nash would not decrease how well, the Suns did that season. You can't tell me that team wouldn't win 55 - 60+ games. With Payton, you actually do not worry as much, because you could put him on Ginobili or Tony Parker defensively against Spurs. No he did not average as many assist or have the same kind of shooting percentages that Nash has. But, he could work tremendously in the flow of the offense, while also being able to get tougher points, he is not limited by playing in the half court or in a more wide open offense. In D'Antoni's system, his assists numbers would go up. Most of all, being a a better defender. Both KJ and Payton are superior scorers to both of Nash and Kidd, and achieve the same amount of playoff success. While, I doubt both Kidd and Nash would even get the best of them in a game or playoff series, more times than not. What really sets point guards apart from one another? Don't listen to Colin Cowherd, is ... scoring ability and clutch plays. You do not necessarily have to have a pass first point guard or one that relies heavily upon assists. Though decision making does matter and setting up teammates, sometimes if your point guard is the best scorer on the team . . . your team is probably going to need him to score. Being a total ball-hog is one thing, while being scorer is another. With Rose, he could indecisive with his scoring, he could easily improve that. His scoring ability is what separates him from other point guards, such as Rondo. Rondo is a good point guard who is pass first, but he doesn't have that offensive skill set. The thing about this is that Rose could do Rondo does more easily, than what Rondo could duplicate in scoring ability. It takes a certain type of player to be a good scorer. I have to also say these two things as well, SIZE and ATHLETICISM. Look at Magic, instant match-up nightmare, same with Oscar Robertson and Derrick Rose. You can even throw in Lebron (small forward, I know) or Lamar Odom. Sort of like a QB, a taller player on more occasions is going to have a better view of the field. Defense matters at every position, it may not demand as much for a point guard, but having a weak point guard on defense definitely works to other teams advantages, especially teams with great back-courts. Even against decent ones or average ones, it can be a problem, because it already works into the favor of the opposing team, especially if their point guard is a fairly decent offensive player. Like I said earlier with Nash on the Suns, don't you think it would be better to have a more defensive minded point guard who could also score in the half court or operate such an offense without the benefits of the entire floor. Putting a more complete point guard like Payton may changed the entire outlook at that series. Oh, the Suns have player who can possibly negate either, Tony Parker or Ginobili. Payton could guard both of them, he took on every good point and shooting guard there was in 90s, did more than just good. That might be an added bonus, but realistically can one just say a better defensive point guard could always help a team (if he is not deficient in offense).
Plutoblue: while I applaud your extremely detailed post, to say that the assist rule alone would affect a players' totals (cousy in this case) by double is a little bit of an overstatement. It does prove however that cousy would have been much higher on the assist totals, but I'm not convinced that they would reach Stockton-level. We are talking about averaging nearly double assists for cousy.
I was about to run all over this board wondering where Robertson was on these lists, but you saved the day, and this thread my friend.
I just can't help myself... Didn't the Rockets field some pretty decent defensive teams with Kenny Smith, an atrocious defender by any measure, starting at PG? Don't the Magic consistently boast a top-5 defense, despite having no good defensive players other than Howard? Interior defense is always the most important factor. Some people here are seriously overstating Nash's deficiencies on defense. Since the 2005-06 season (from 82games.com): Code: <TABLE> [B]<tr><td>Season</td><td>OppPER</td><td>OppPointsPer100PossON</td><td>OppPointsPer100PossOFF</td><td>OppEffFG%ON</td><td>OppEffFG%OFF</td><tr/>[/B] <tr><td>05-06</td><td>15.2</td><td>106.4</td><td>107.2</td><td>49.7%</td><td>47.7%</td><tr/> <tr><td>06-07</td><td>16.4</td><td>107.5</td><td>106.6</td><td>49.5%</td><td>48.8%</td><tr/> <tr><td>07-08</td><td>17.4</td><td>108.9</td><td>108.0</td><td>49.2%</td><td>47.6%</td><tr/> <tr><td>08-09</td><td>18.2</td><td>112.8</td><td>112.1</td><td>50.9%</td><td>51.5%</td><tr/> <tr><td>09-10</td><td>15.6</td><td>111.9</td><td>109.9</td><td>49.2%</td><td>48.8%</td><tr/> <tr><td>10-11</td><td>13.7</td><td>110.4</td><td>112.7</td><td>50.5%</td><td>52.7%</td><tr/> </TABLE> Nash is a below average-to-bad defender. But he's not the historically bad defensive sieve that some of you guys are trying to make him out to be, and his contributions on offense far outweigh his limitations on D.
I've got Jerry West as a shooting guard. Havilcek, I thought was more of small forward, I didn't put him on this list. 1. MJ 2. Kobe (I'm not the biggest Kobe fan in the world, but anyone who puts him lower than 3 is a hater or have some sort of biases against him). He's really the only other shooting guard who is has won alot, West played on some talented teams and Wade will, the other players are lacking something that he has). 3. West 4. George Gervin (13 playoff appearances and 4 scoring titles) 5. Wade (This is where the level starts to change or drop a little more), originally at 4 6. Clyde Drexler originally at 7 7. Pistol Pete Maravich (4 playoff appearances) - I had him 6 originally 8. Allen Iverson (I'm sorry to say this, he was a great player, but in some ways he is overrated. 9. Tracy McGrady 10 (toss-up) Vince Carter, Reggie Miller, Ray Allen, Earl Monroe, Joe Dumars and Sam Jones Reggie Miller was a fantastic playoff player and very clutch, but he is lacking something all those other players have. He had a talented team to with some really good coaches. But he did not have that dynamic to his game, like say Ray Allen, Tracy McGrady, Earl Monroe, or Clyde Drexler Shooting guards, I don't think you can harp on the title arguments in some cases like centers and power forwards, but I think you can make a case more for teams making the playoffs every year or not.
Players like Dream, Duncan, Shaq and Dwight to a lesser extent are exceptions to the rule. Lets take the Orlando Magic and use them as an example since you brought them up. The one constant on that team over these last few years is Dwight Howard. There's no arguing that. In 2008-2009 they had Mickael Pietrus and Matt Barnes to shore up the perimeter defense. They made it to the Finals. In 2009-2010 they had Michael Pietrus and Matt Barnes to shore up the perimeter defense. They made it to the Eastern conference finals. This past year they traded/ got rid of Pietrus and Barnes (defenders) in exchange for more offense. The end result was they lost in the first round. Another example. The Memphis Grizzlies. In 09-10 they were ranked 19th overall in defense. They had the same coach and all their major pieces though.. Randolph, Gasol, Mayo a healthy Gay etc. They failed to make the playoffs as usual. This past year they got Tony Allen and replaced an injured Gay by trading for Battier. Having Battier take Gay's minutes was a blessing in disguise and probably the best trade Memphis could have ever made. The addition of Allen and Battier helped Memphis finish 9th overall in defense and they made a deep playoff run. When you here guys like Pietrus, Barnes, Allen, Battier you don't think superstar or great players per se but these guys are stellar perimeter defenders that help you win ball games. Especially in the playoffs where the games slow down and become a half-court game.
The top 3 are pretty clearly Robertson, Magic, and Stockton. Kidd and Isiah are in the next tier, clustered closely with a number of other good players like Nash, Gary Payton, Kevin Johnson, etc. People give Isiah a lot of props for leading his team to the championship, which is an accomplishment. But his numbers are clearly worse than Robertson, Magic, or Stockton. It's not really close. I don't think you can give Isiah a lot more credit for leadership over Stockton, Kidd, or Payton. All those guys took teams to the finals but none of them had enough talent to win it. Basically they each had a great PF to play with plus some avg to above-avg role players. Meanwhile Isiah's teams had near all-star talent at multiple positions (Dumars, Aguirre/Dantley, Rodman, Laimbeer). So it's tough to judge. Whether you put Isiah at the top is really a matter of how impressed you are with his scoring. Personally I think that if Isiah was slightly less of a scorer, his teams would have done just as well. I mean, he could feed the ball to Dumars, Vinnie, or Aguirre and they'd still have a ton of offense. We'll see how Chris Paul's career goes, but if he can stay healthy and get some better teammates, I think he could make himself the clear #4 or even #3. IMO he's more talented than either Isiah or Payton, and has a more well-rounded game than either Kidd of Nash.
