Xbox 360 leads April sales + KH2 surpasses 1M sold

I don't think that's much of anything to rely on. Personally, I haven't seen that many people in that situation. Maybe about the same number of people that said they haven't touched their DS/360/PS2/etc. much...and I hope we don't have to discuss the quality of those lineups. There's a reason why I usually don't use anecdotal evidence and tend to rely on facts and figures. Unless you can show me that something like 50% of the PSP userbase aren't using their PSPs (for games, or at all), then this really shouldn't be much of an argument IMO. I think you're just making a big deal out of the few people who haven't quite had the experience they thought they'd get from the PSP.

Even if I went along with this and agreed that a large number of people haven't used their PSPs much, that wouldn't necessarily mean that the library sucks. The PSP could have 20 >90% games and 10 games that sold 3+M, but we might still have people saying that. One theory that I've seen on message boards and/or analysis reports is that a large percentage of the PSP userbase are first-time handheld owners (the PSP is their first handheld). Up until this point, they saw no reason to join the handheld world, but Sony apparently got them to try it out. However, for some reason or another, they found out handheld gaming wasn't for them. Maybe they found out that they didn't have as much "time on the go" as they thought they would. Maybe they didn't want to keep up with charging the system. Maybe they got addicted to homebrew, or some of the other features of the PSP. Basically, these people would eventually quit playing their PSP regardless of how good the games were.

Where are you getting the idea that all these games are lesser versions of their console cousins? Out of the top 20 PSP games at Gamerankings, at least 10 are original games (Lumines, WO, RR, Daxter, MGA2, Field Commander, etc.) with unique features specific to the PSP AFAIK. There may have been more, but I didn't count GTA:LCS even though I wanted to. The next 20 have 13 games (Mega Man MHX, Street Fighter, Twisted Metal, Exit, Infected, Pursuit Force, Mercury, etc.) by my count that are the same way. Those should be more than enough, IMO, to excite PSP owners, even if they all hated ports (which clearly isn't true).

I think it is debatable on Wipeout and Ridge Racer. I know Ridge Racer on the PSP played unlike any other Ridge Racer prior to it (more about drifting), and it offered a large amount of courses from the franchise (which is pretty popular among big-time PS fans from what I could tell). Wipeout was kind of similar in that regard, and it also offered downloadable content (new tracks and vehicles for example). Perhaps that could have been done on some other system, but so could pretty much every GBA game and a lot of DS games (the ones that just use the touch screen as a map, or something like that...possibly even the top 3 DS games).

FWIW, the last Ridge Racer game came out in 2003, although it was a realistic racer; the previous game came out during the PS2 launch in 2000. I guess you can count RR6 for the 360 being the console version of the PSP Ridge Racer, but only a possible 1.7M people in the US would have a chance of playing it (and I think sales were <100K IIRC anyway). As for Wipeout, the last one came out in 2002. And again, AFAIK, a lot of the concepts used in that game aren't the same in Wipeout Pure, similar to Ridge Racer and R: Racing Evolution. So unless you want to play a PSX game or a PS2 launch title, which will probably look worse and have less features than the PSP titles, both of these things can only be experienced on the PSP.

Really? Well, I guess people who were unimpressed bought the games anyway.

I'm going post some sales figures all the way back from December (they were the easiest to get at the moment) and tell me if you notice something:

Those were some of the better-selling PSP games (LTD figures BTW, although they're 6+ months out-of-date). And this is why I think the port argument is stupid. I always hear about how people don't want ports of their console games, and yet on most sales charts, there always seems to be some ports at the top of the charts (NFS, Madden, Winning Eleven, SW: Battlefront, MLB The Show, etc.). These are the same games that are largely responsible for helping the PSP SW LTD be roughly on par with DS SW LTD (as well as keeping the HW numbers roughly the same). They're not collecting dust on the shelves while they're PS2 cousins get taken from the shelves.

Maybe you and few others don't like playing ports on a handheld. But you guys don't appear to share the same opinions with the majority of PSP owners. 500+K people paid $40-$50 to play Madden on their PSP. Not 50+K. You can try to reason your way through explaining why people don't want to play ports on the PSP, but the numbers don't seem to agree with you.

And this really doesn't have anything to do with the quality of the PSP lineup IMO. If you port RE4, KH2, FFXII, GoW/GoW2, etc., on the PSP (assumingly decent ports at that, probably with a few handheld features), that doesn't make the lineup trash. Maybe people who played them already wouldn't want to play them again (debatable), but those who haven't might love to play them on the PSP. These are still great games (well...maybe not >90%, but great IMO). Nothing has changed that.

I know you didn't say DS SW LTD sold more (not even sure if anyone knows that for sure right now anyway,). But where did I bring up the DS and May sales, at least when it came to this discussion? Again, the only monthly numbers I really knew about were the May HW numbers; I didn't know the rough PSP/DS SW figures for May until around the time of my last post (was like 800K for the DS and 600K for the PSP FWIW).

I believe you claimed that I brought up monthly SW sales, but that's pretty much impossible since I didn't even know them at the time. Again, the only SW figures I gave at the time was the fact that the PSP SW had sold more in its lifetime than the DS SW had sold during its lifetime (at least through April). And that's LTD sales, not monthly, so I'm not sure where you got the idea that I was posting monthly sales numbers anywhere.

As I mentioned, the PSP SW LTD numbers had been ahead of the DS SW LTD numbers for quite a while. Again, I can't remember offhand exactly when it surpassed the DS totals, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if it took place before those 63 games came out (which would give the DS the total game advantage).

And again, in the end, the PSP only has a 21 title advantage through the ~2 years the two systems have been out and the 250+ titles each system has. The last 6 months don't mean jack in that regard IMO. In fact, if nothing else, it might even out things since the DS had like a 5 month advantage to sell software, which includes 2 holiday seasons as opposed to 1 for the PSP. I'd say those are more important in determining LTD figures than a slight difference in the number of titles between the two.

If you want to just look at the last 6 months, where the PSP had 44 out of the 63 games, then your point doesn't really hold up since the DS SW has been doing a little better than the PSP SW during that time period (although both have kind of sucked). So when the PSP started getting a sheer quantity advantage, the DS actually sold more SW. That doesn't really seem to follow what you were pointing out.

Well, I partly brought up the DS since the only figure I knew off the top of my head included the DS (easier to remember PSP > DS instead of PSP = 12,556,394), plus I wanted to use it as a comparison. The GBA doesn't really work nor do the consoles (especially since they regularly outsell the handhelds in SW...even the GC). Comparing the PSP SW to Ipod SW wouldn't work, as you mentioned (although it would have been to say the PSP had good games, not that they were better than the Ipod's games). So if I wanted to compare the PSP numbers to anything, the DS was really the only option. If you're not familiar with sales figures or something like that, seeing some basic number won't really give you an idea of what it means. If I had said 12M units of SW had been sold for the PSP, perhaps McGrady would have thought the DS, with its much better games lineup (IMO), would have sold like 50M units of SW (or something like that). Mentioning that the PSP actually sells more out of the two should make someone at least think twice about their opinion on the PSP's game lineup.

I don't know, maybe I should have left it out. But in the end, with or without the PSP/DS comparisons, there should be way more than enough evidence that the PSP lineup is far from trash; it should be painfully obvious by now. In fact, I'm sure if you try to say otherwise at some respectable gaming site/forum, you'll probably be flamed and/or banned, even in a Nintendo/DS site. There should really be no debate here. Anyone who even tries to suggest that the PSP game lineup is trash and contains no quality games probably has some personal vendetta or something against Sony and/or the PSP. The games get grea..um...good reviews and they also sell well (relative to another handheld anyway). People like the PSP games. I don't see how anyone could disregard all that. That's basically what makes for a quality lineup IMO.

 

I'm quoting this part first just to see if we're on the same page (I don't think we are).

My original point in discussing the PSP's library was to get rid of the myth about the PSP having no (quality) games, and/or that the lineup was trash. For proving that wrong, it seemed like sales figures and highreview scores should be more than enough to conclude that the PSP's lineup is not trash. Apparently, you don't seem to think that it is the case, or at least you wouldn't call it trash (maybe worse? ). I'm assuming we're on the same page here.

Now to complicate matters. Is the PSP's lineup lacking? This is definitely a much more complicated matter since it may depend on one's definition of "lacking." Obviously, I've already pointed out my concern about how the PSP doesn't have a >90% title at Gamerankings, so I guess I can agree to a degree that the lineup is indeed lacking. Indeed the lineup could be better, although that could be said about any system's lineup.

But I don't think it makes it a bad lineup by any means. A bad lineup wouldn't result in something like 4M PSPs sold and 12M units of software (rough numbers, but should be somewhere around there). Again, it isn't the best in the world...not by a long shot. But it isn’t the worst either...again, not by a long shot (well, IMO).

Now to the other points...

Is that still the case? I haven't heard it much it in a while, but it seems like things started dying down when the games started coming (maybe almost a year ago). I mean, it was certainly the case early on that the PSP's lineup was pretty bad. The launch lineup was pretty solid, but there was absolutely nothing after that for such a long period of time. Then things like GTA, Madden, SW:BF, SOCOM, Pursuit Force, Daxter, Syphon Filter, Field Commander, etc. started hitting, and those concerns weren't quite as common from what I could tell.

Now whenever I see someone question the PSPs lineup, I see people bring up all those games, plus the SW numbers (which wasn't the case over the year ago). Although that's mostly for discouting the "PSP has no (quality) games" thing that I was trying to defend.

That's true (although he did act like some PSP games caught his eye). I've seen maybe a couple of other people say that here, but I don't know I've seen it happen "all the time." I don't know if more than 10 people even own a PSP on this forum.

Along those same lines, I've seen people that posted about how they never touched their PS2 much, and that was also on this very forum. Does that mean the PS2 lineup is lacking? I don't think so, although maybe something like .2% of the userbase think so...although that would still be like ~100K people...so maybe less than that.

I just don't like anecdotal evidence since it over exaggerates such a small portion of the userbase for these systems. I've read about people who went through 3-4 Xbox 360 systems in 6 months, but that's not going to make me think that the 360 defect rate is beyond comprehension (in fact, it is probably in that acceptable ~5% or less range IIRC). However, those reports alone might seem to suggest that 1 out of every 3 360 owners were on their second console 6 months after launch or something like that. Although I guess you (general "you") could miss out on those and happen to know 10 people who haven't had a single problem with their systems, leading you to believe that the 360 defect rate is 0% or something like that.

How long ago was that? As I said earlier, that was definitely a concern at one time, but it seems like most in the gaming industry stopped mentioning this once some of the recent titles started coming out.

Oh OK. Although I'm not really that familiar with the last 6 months sales, at least specifically (other than both systems' sales have kind of sucked, although PSP's sales more so than DS's sales). Again, I only brought up the last 6 months in order to show some recent games that came out for the PSP that, IMO, are at least decent if not good (or even great). I could have easily chosen 30 days, 3 months, or 12 months. 6 months seemed like the best option at the time, although it wasn't really that big of a deal. Not sure if that was a problem, but I just wanted to mention why I even mentioned games that came out during the last 6 months.

Well, originally when I was trying to show that the PSP's lineup wasn't trash, or just the fact that people were playing games on their PSP, I thought it was a nice thing to post. Again, maybe I should have left out the DS numbers all together. I just thought it was needed for context, especially since not everyone is as excited about sales data as I am. NPD day is the best day of the month!

Correct, the two seem to be within about 100K-200K in both cases (SW and HW) by most estimates...and all NPD numbers are estimates anyway (although REALLY good ones at that), so either one could easily be ahead in either category. Although that probably won't be the case after next month with the launch of the DSL and the legs of NSMB, Brain Training, and a few other DS titles. Possibly the closest the PSP will be for quite a while, unless something unexpected happens.

That's true, I don't disagree about that. How many times did we hear about how the Xbox only had sports games, shooters, and other action titles? In fact, maybe something like the Xbox is a good comparison for the PSP. People who want plenty of good games in every genre might not go with either platform (at least early on in their lives), but someone who enjoys some sports titles and/or action titles will find some quality games on both.

Of course, I'm assuming Sony would rather not be just the Xbox of the handheld world, and obviously if they want to even come close to matching Nintendo's handheld numbers, they'll definitely have to broaden the lineup out a bit...maybe putting up the PS1 lineup to play on the PSP is their way of doing so. They were plenty of genres and games to pick from on that system, including RIIIIIIIDGE RACER! (wish I had used this joke first)

So I guess in that regard, I could see how someone could call the PSP's game lineup "lacking." I suppose the PSP could have nothing but FPS games, which would include Half-Life, Halo, Far Cry, Doom, Quake, etc. Those are all quality games and probably would sell a lot on the PSP (disregarding the port factor...although they still might). However, the lineup as a whole would be lacking, which I guess was your point this whole time. Maybe there was a misunderstanding here.

Eh...why not? It might be fun.

Here are the top 30 (or 25 if you block out the last 5) games at Gamerankings, along with genre descriptions from Gamespot and the word "Port" where I think it applies (I probably won't be that lenient):

1. Lumines "Puzzle"
2. Wipeout Pure "Futuristic Racing"
3. Ridge Racer "Racing"
4. Syphon Filter: Dark Mirror "Modern Tactical Shooter"
5. Grand Theft Auto: Liberty City Stories "Modern Action Adventure"
6. Daxter "3D Platformer"
7. Burnout Legends "Racing"
8. Virtua Tennis: World Tour "Tennis" Port
9. Mega Man Powered Up "2D Platformer"
10. MLB '06: The Show "Baseball" Port
11. X-Men Legends II: Rise of Apocalypse "Action Role-Playing" Port
12. Tony Hawk's Underground 2 Remix "Skateboarding" Port
13. OutRun 2006: Coast 2 Coast "Racing" Port
14. Field Commander "Sci-Fi Turn-Based Strategy"
15. Hot Shots Golf: Open Tee "Golf"
16. SOCOM: U.S. Navy SEALs Fireteam Bravo "Modern Tactical Shooter"
17. Tiger Woods PGA Tour 06 "Golf Sim" Port
18. MLB "Baseball Sim" Port
19. Metal Gear Acid 2 "Modern Turn-Based Strategy"
20. WWE SmackDown! vs. RAW 2006 "Wrestling" Port
21. Mega Man Maverick Hunter X "2D Platformer" Remake?
22. Street Fighter Alpha 3 MAX "2D Fighting" Port?
23. Tiger Woods PGA Tour "Golf Sim" Port
24. Twisted Metal: Head-On "Car Combat"
25. SSX On Tour "Snowboarding" Port?
26. NBA Live 06 "Basketball Sim" Port
27. Exit "Puzzle"
28. World Soccer Winning Eleven 9 "Soccer Sim" Port
29. Capcom Classics Collection Remixed "Compilation"
30. Lemmings "Puzzle"

So let's see here...11 ports in the top 30...12 if you count SSX, which is more like a port of 2 games plus a little I think...13 if you count Street Fighter, which is apparently pretty much a port (plus some) of an arcade game (off the top of my head, I don't know if the consoles offer the same game). I guess 14 if you count GTA, but that's pretty debatable IMO. I think I read that there was a PS2 version of Lemmings in the works, and that it is supposed to link up with the PSP version, but I'm not sure if it is still in development (TBA for release date). So that might be another possible port I guess, although I didn't note it in the list.

BTW, I should note that even though a lot of those were ports, some of them did add new things to the PSP version, especially something like THUG 2 Remix (the name even implies that). So I guess 30%-50% of the top 30 are ports, depending on how you define a port. At least they all appear to be sports/racing games, which might be easier to appreciate on a handheld than maybe some other type of game, particularly one with a storyline or something like that. As I said earlier, I like the idea of being able to take those games on the go, which is something I haven't been able to do before on a handheld.

Now for genres...seems like 4 games for racing/driving, 5 if you want to include "Car Combat" into this category. You got 2 baseball games, one basketball game, 3 golf games (one of which is arcadey), a soccer game, and a tennis game. You have a snowboarding game, a skateboarding game, and a wrestling game. You have 3 shooters in GTA, Syphon Filter, and SOCOM, although they're each kind of different from each other (sandbox, stealth, squad-based, etc). You have 3 platformers, one of which is 3D, the others being 2D. Along with those 2D games, you have SF (2D Fighting) and the compilation of classic games. You have 2 strategy games in MGA and Field Commander, although both are different (Advanced Wars style versus um...MGA style). You have 3 puzzle games in Exit, Lemmings, and Lumines, and finally the only RPG game in the top 30 with X-men Legends 2.

If you look at just racing games, then only 4-5 of the top 30 are in that genre, so I don't think that it is that much of a problem. But I think your point can still stand. Along racing games, there do seem to be a lot of sports and action/shooter titles. There are 7 sports sims, 1 arcadey sports game, plus games like TH, SSX, and SD vs Raw (11 total right here). Then you have 3 shooters, which although very different, fit that action genre. So counting racing games, sports games, and action games, 19 of the top 30 fit one of those descriptions. The other 11 kind of go off in various genres, although you can group some of them together too ("thinking games," platformers, etc.).

I don't know. I guess it depends on how you look at things. The PSP could certainly use more strategy, RPG, puzzle, platformers and other similar games (assuming they are good anyway), but the breakdown isn't that bad. I mean, if you throw out racing, sports, and action games, the lineup sucks I guess, but that's some big popular genres to throw out. Plus, an action/shooter game like Syphon Filter doesn't play like SOCOM, which doesn't play like GTA (3 different types of games and gamers). I'm not sure what to think at the moment, so I guess I'll let you or someone else discuss this breakdown. Maybe I'll check out some of the breakdowns for the other systems.

Same here.

 

Just out of curiosity, I started looking at the top 30 of other systems on Gamerankings:

DS (up to 32 since GR lists Nintendogs 3 times)

1. Mario Kart DS "Kart Racing"
2. Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow "Horror Action Adventure"
3. Advance Wars: Dual Strike "Modern Turn-Based Strategy"
4. New Super Mario Bros. "2D Platformer"
5. Meteos "Puzzle"
6. Kirby: Canvas Curse "2D Platformer"
7. Tetris DS "Puzzle"
8. Animal Crossing: Wild World "Virtual Life"
9. Super Mario 64 DS "3D Platformer"
10. Metroid Prime: Hunters "Sci-Fi First-Person Shooter"
11. Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time "Role-Playing"
12. Tony Hawk's American Sk8land "Skateboarding"
13. Nintendogs: Labrador and Friends "Virtual Life"
14. Nintendogs: Dachshund and Friends "Virtual Life"
15. Nintendogs: Chihuahua and Friends "Virtual Life"
16. Sonic Rush "2D Platformer"
17. WarioWare: Touched! "Puzzle"
18. Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney "Adventure"
19. Age of Empires: The Age of Kings "Turn-Based Strategy"
20. Trauma Center: Under the Knife "Simulation"
21. Metroid Prime Pinball "Pinball"
22. Brain Age: Train Your Brain in Minutes a Day "Edutainment"
23. Bomberman "Puzzle"
24. Super Princess Peach "2D Platformer"
25. Viewtiful Joe: Double Trouble "Beat-'Em-Up"
26. Feel the Magic: XY/XX "Puzzle"
27. Puyo Pop Fever "Puzzle"
28. Bust-A-Move DS "Puzzle"
29. Electroplankton "Music Maker"
30. Ultimate Spider-Man "Beat-'Em-Up"
31. Zoo Keeper "Puzzle"
32. Polarium "Puzzle"

Time for the breakdown...there are 9 puzzle games in the DS top 30/33, 10 if you want to count Electroplankton as one (it is a "music maker"). There are 5 platformers (1 3D, others 2D). There are 2 strategy games, 1 simulation game, and one "Edutainment" game. There are 2/4 virtual life games, depending on how you count Nintendogs. There are two Beat-'Em-Up games. The last 7 games are pretty much in different genres, including some RPGs and adventure games.

I don't really think this lineup has a much better breakdown than the PSP's lineup. I mean, if the PSP's lineup can be thought up as only racing games, then the DS is definitely just for puzzle games and platformers. About half (15) of the top 30/32 fit in either the puzzle (or "music maker") or platformer genre. However, the other half are pretty much as diverse as you can get, with maybe 2-3 games tops in the same genre (although you can possibly group some of them together to hold maybe 4-6 games or so).

I’m going to do the Xbox next since I was using that system for comparisons too:
XBX

1. Halo: Combat Evolved "Sci-Fi First-Person Shooter"
2. Halo 2 "Sci-Fi First-Person Shooter"
3. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic "Role-Playing"
4. Grand Theft Auto Double Pack "Modern Action Adventure"
5. Ninja Gaiden Black "Fantasy Action Adventure"
6. Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell Chaos Theory "Modern Action Adventure"
7. Project Gotham Racing 2 "GT / Street Racing"
8. Burnout 3: Takedown "Racing"
9. Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time "Fantasy Action Adventure"
10. Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell "Modern Action Adventure"
11. Forza Motorsport "GT / Street Racing"
12. Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas "Modern Action Adventure"
13. Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell Pandora Tomorrow "Modern Action Adventure"
14. Ninja Gaiden "Fantasy Action Adventure"
15. Soul Calibur II "3D Fighting"
16. NFL 2K3 "Football Sim"
17. The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind Game of the Year Edition "Role-playing"
18. Psychonauts "3D Platformer"
19. SSX 3 "Snowboarding"
20. NCAA Football 2004 "Football Sim"
21. Half-Life 2 "Sci-Fi First-Person Shooter"
22. Panzer Dragoon Orta "Shoot-'Em-Up"
23. Madden NFL 2003 "Football Sim"
24. ESPN NFL 2K5 "Football Sim"
25. Burnout Revenge "Racing"
26. ESPN NFL Football "Football Sim"
27. World Soccer Winning Eleven 8 International "Soccer Sim"
28. Jade Empire "Role-Playing"
29. Madden NFL 2005 "Football Sim"
30. Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3 "Skateboarding"

Yeah, I can already tell that this probably won't really work out right. There are 6 "Football Sim" games alone in the top 30.

Well, let's keep going I guess. Along with those games, there is a soccer sim, a skateboarding game, and a snowboarding game (9 sports games, 6 are football sims). There are 8 action-adventure games, and 3 FPS games (each in the same type of FPS too). 4 racing games, and 3 RPGs. The last 3 are each in different genres.

I'm just going to quit here unless someone else wants to see a breakdown of the other systems. Either this type of analysis doesn't work (which is probably a valid point when there are 6 "Football Sim" games in the top 30 for a system...maybe I should have checked for games in the 1st 2 years or so), or the PSP's lineup doesn't seem quite as lacking when compared to other systems...or comparing the top 30 games for each system anyway. The ports argument is still somewhat valid I guess, although there are almost as many puzzle games on the DS as there are ports on the PSP....whatever that means...the numbers seemed close enough to warrant a comparison.

 

I kind of got distracted from posting these earlier, but here are some extra numbers from May:

Exact (or close to it) HW numbers (PSP included):

PS2 231,616
360 220,877
GC 33,040
XBX 26,353
GBA 152,023
DS 145,930
PSP 159,659

Top 10 SW for May (in units sold), with LTD numbers in brackets:

1. New Super Mario Bros. (DS) 275,692 [New]
2. Kingdom Hearts 2 (PS2) 168,944 [1,318,967]
3. Brain Training (DS) 109,432 [199,749]
4. God of War (PS2) 106,707 [1,144,513]
5. Elder Scrolls IV : Oblivion (360) 90,204 [617,943]
6. Ghost Recon : Advanced Warfighter (360) 84,431 [702,484]
7. MLB 06 : The Show (PS2) 81,895 [409,745]
8. Guitar Hero (PS2) 67,871
9. GTA San Andreas (PS2) 64,520 [6,402,804]
10. Kingdom Hearts (PS2) 60,236 [2,742,017]

PC Info:

I'm not sure if anyone cares, but if nothing else, posting this here makes things easier for me if I need to see these numbers again later.

 

None really. I was just mentioning how the two make up a large, and practically equal, portion of each system's lineup from what I could tell. I did say "whatever that means."

Just out of curiosity, why do you keep bringing up racing games? It is true that 2 out of the top 3 PSP games are racing games (and were launch titles), but only 4 are in the top 20 or the top 30 (unless you want to count Twisted Metal as a racing game). You might as well replace it with shooters, action games, or something like that. I really don't think they're that big of a problem, at least when looking at the top 20/30.

So I'm guessing this really boils down to the ports and the almost-ports. They make up roughly half the top 20/30 by themselves, so adding anything to it will be more than half.

Something just occurred to me here...assuming you'd want the PSP to be good for playing sports games...how could it not have a number of ports? Out of the 8 ports in the top 20 that you posted, 6 (4 not counting WWE and Tony Hawk) of them are sports games (or close enough IMO). Just out of curiosity, what would the top 20 look like without them? Let's see...

1. Lumines
2. Wipeout Pure
3. Ridge Racer
4. Syphon Filter: Dark Mirror
5. Grand Theft Auto: Liberty City Stories Console Title
6. Daxter
7. Burnout Legends Console Title
8. Mega Man Powered Up
9. X-Men Legends II: Rise of Apocalypse Port
10. OutRun 2006: Coast 2 Coast Port
11. Field Commander
12. SOCOM: U.S. Navy SEALs Fireteam Bravo
13. Metal Gear Acid 2
14. Mega Man Maverick Hunter X
15. Street Fighter Alpha 3 MAX Port
16. Twisted Metal: Head-On
17. Exit
18. Capcom Classics Collection Remixed Collection
19. Lemmings
20. Metal Gear Acid

So 3 direct ports (or close enough), 2 games that have similar or the same content as a console version, and 1 collection (added that in too, not sure if you care about those or not). Doesn't seem like such a big deal anymore, especially since 2 of them are racing games, and there isn't a lack of quality racing games available on the PSP, port or otherwise.

Take away the sports (and maybe a few racing games), and all of a sudden it can become quite a challenge to find ports on the PSP. I guess I should have figured that out sooner; I thought the Xbox list looked a little funny, but sports games tend to appear a lot in the top 20/30 games for a system. The PS2 has 6 of them in the top 20, and 11 in the top 30; the GC has the same breakdown. Shrink one of the 3 consoles into a handheld, and their lineups will probably consist of a lot of ports just because of these sports games.

So ironically, the first handheld that could do justice to sports games also happens to be the first to get complaints about there being a lot of ports. I guess people who like to play sports games might be out of luck if they also hate ports, but I guess the PSP could do fine without them. After all, I can think of two other handhelds that did very well without focusing on sports titles.

So for the people who don't like sports titles, let's check out that list of 20 games again:

1. Lumines
2. Wipeout Pure
3. Ridge Racer
4. Syphon Filter: Dark Mirror
5. Grand Theft Auto: Liberty City Stories
6. Daxter
7. Burnout Legends
8. Mega Man Powered Up
9. X-Men Legends II: Rise of Apocalypse
10. OutRun 2006: Coast 2 Coast
11. Field Commander
12. SOCOM: U.S. Navy SEALs Fireteam Bravo
13. Metal Gear Acid 2
14. Mega Man Maverick Hunter X
15. Street Fighter Alpha 3 MAX
16. Twisted Metal: Head-On
17. Exit
18. Capcom Classics Collection Remixed
19. Lemmings
20. Metal Gear Acid

Note that MGA, the lowest-rated game listed, has a ~77% rating at Gamerankings, so all those games are good if not great (by most reviewers' standards anyway). I've already broken down 19 of those games into genres, so just add another strategy game to the breakdown from earlier, which was already pretty diverse IMO. 5 (or 6 if you count both MGA games) are pretty much new franchises/IPs started on the PSP as well. It isn't the deepest or most unique library I guess, but it certainly isn't bad IMO.

Damn...sports....ports...sports...it was looking at me the whole time.

 

You sure those criticisms aren't just coming from people who just like to trash the PSP's lineup? Or maybe just criticisms from long ago, back when the only really good games on the PSP were Wipeout, Ridge Racer, and Burnout? Again, looking at the top 20/30 games now, it doesn't make sense to call the PSP's lineup full of racing games. You can just as easily say it is full of shooters (SOCOM, GTA, Syphon Filter, etc), puzzle games (Lumines, Lemmings, Mercury, Exit), strategy games (MGA 1 and 2, Field Commander, etc.), platformers (Daxter, Megaman Powered Up and MHX), or just about any other genre (including sports, which make up 7 of the top 20). In fact, I think it is time for another system comparison with our friend Gamerankings.

According to Gamerankings, there are 22 "Driving" games for the PSP (with at least 1 review). So 22 out of 288 games are driving games, or roughly 7.64%. Compared to the other recent handhelds, that may be a little much. The GBA had 72 driving games out of its 996 games, or roughly 7.23% (actually pretty close to the PSP ratio). The DS has 12/267, or about 4.49%. Out of these 3, the PSP does appear to have a lot of driving games I guess. However, lets look at the consoles again. The GC has 63 driving games out of 593 games, or about 10.63%; the Xbox has 129 out of 1018 games, or about 12.67%. The PS2 has at least 200 driving games in its 1663 game lineup, which is about 12.03%. Note, I did say "at least." Unless I'm mistaken, Gamerankings can only list 200 games at a time, so the PS2 probably has more driving games that aren't showing up. So if the PSP lineup is made up of a lot of racing games, then so is pretty much every system except for the DS and maybe the GBA.

BTW, how many good racing games are new properties? The newest ones I can really think of are Forza and PGR, and those were early Xbox titles. Otherwise, most racing games that come out are games in an already made franchise (Ridge Racer, Gran Turismo, MotoGP, Midnight Club, NFS, Mario Kart, Outrun, TOCA, Burnout, etc.). If you're dissing the PSP's racing games because they aren't new properties, you might as well diss every racing game that has come out recently. Plus, from what I could tell about 5 of those 22 "Driving" games appear to be new properties (or at least not ports of anything), 2-3 of which are at least decent (any of those 2-3 would easily be the second or third best driving game for the DS, if that means anything).

Also, even though I alluded to this earlier, driving games are only the 3rd or 4th biggest genre for the PSP. Action games (31), sports games (29), and "miscellaneous" games (24) take up bigger percentages of the PSP's lineup (about 10% each). Myth busted? I think so...or at least, I hope so.

Why not? Because it ruins your argument?

Well, sports games take up a large chunk of any library really, although the PSP sports games tend to be better than most other handheld sports games. And again, assuming you want the PSP to have a nice sports lineup, how can it not have ports? I've already shown you what the lineup looks like without sports games, and ports definitely didn't seem to be a problem (sports games were the problem, not ports I guess). Anyone criticizing the PSP for having a bunch of ports should just be thankful that there are some decent sports games on a handheld finally.

As for being the best games on the system, I already pointed out that every system except for the DS and GBA (which, coincidentally, never really had good sports lineups) has several sports games in their top 20/30 list. Assuming your system has a nice sports lineup, you'll have a lot of sports games as your best games. And if you're a handheld, they'll probably be ports.

How so? Your point was that the PSP's lineup isn't deep and was lacking basically because it had a lot of ports. My point is that there are a lot of ports, but a vast majority of those ports were all basically the same type of game; if each genre in the PSP's library was made up of mostly ports, you'd have a point. But only one genre really fits that description, and problems with a single genre doesn't keep a handheld from having a good lineup.

Let's go through the types of gamers and see if the PSP's library has something that isn't a port for them.

A sports gamer will go into a shop and look at the PSP's sports section. He'll see Madden, NBA Live, MLB The Show, Tony Hawk, and more. But they're all ports of the console versions. He'll either be OK with that and buy those games (and a PSP if he doesn't have one), or he'll be mad about them being ports and would save his money.

A fan of driving games walks in and goes to the driving section. He sees some racing games like NFS, Burnout, Outrun, MotoGP, etc., and is either OK with these ports or he decides not to get any of them since he already has them on his PS2. However, he also sees Ridge Racer, Wipeout, Twisted Metal, Gripshift, and Pursuit Force. He probably buys some games and/or a PSP.

A fan of action games goes to the action section. He sees GTA:LCS (which he may have already bought), SOCOM, Syphon Filter, Infected, and some platformers like Daxter, Mega Man Powered Up, and Mega Man MHX. And pretty much all of those games aren't ports. So he'll buy some games and/or a PSP.

And the same can be said about fans of puzzle games, strategy games, and a couple of other genres. The only gamers possibly put off by the number of ports are the fans of sports games. I guess they are out of luck if they want some original sports games on the PSP instead of ports...wait...did I just say original sports games? Yeah...that doesn't really make sense.

Otherwise, gamers who want an action game, a driving game, a strategy game, a puzzle game, or a RPG game will probably not have a problem finding good PSP games that were not available on their PS2. Maybe not as easily as finding good games for the PS2, but the lineup does have a lot of variety and quality.

Yeah, Bluetooth allows for a wireless connection between 8 devices (1 being the PS3, the other 7 being controllers). Additionally, it sounded like they were saying it would be theoretically possibly to connect more controllers (or PSPs, which could be used as controllers) to the USB ports, as well as hooking up some PSPs wirelessly with the PS3's WiFi...well, the PS3 that has WiFi enabled anyway. I would have loved to see that happen (10+ people in the same room).

Considering the number of lights as well as the number of USB ports, I'm assuming 4 will be the default max for controllers. I suppose it would be possible to increase that, but the demand would have to be there. Just like the PS1 and PS2, a multitap would be easy to make AFAIK, but enabling more than 2 controllers is a little different than enabling more than 4 controllers (especially since no other console supports more AFAIK).

They've also talked about multiple configurations down the line, so I guess they could add a USB port or two, possibly allowing for 5 or more controllers without a multitap, although the multitap solution would be more profitable for them.

Personally, I wouldn't count on there being more than 4 controllers usable at a time. It may be relatively easy to support it (for any console with USB), but I don't think they'll bother. 4 seems like the standard for max controllers in the industry.

 

Note that I'll be using Metacritic below because Gamerankings is having problems right now (I broke it); I'll change some things later if necessary.

If they were doing so recently, perhaps. But I haven't really seen them do it much recently. Hell, at one time, the PS2 and DS lineups were trashed, and now they're probably some of the best lineups.

I think I do recall a Gamespot staff member recently dissing the PSP (not sure if it was exactly on this subject or not). IIRC, there were several PSP numbers used, but they were all out-of-date I believe. The numbers on PSP units shipped WW and number of game shipments were all from mid-to-late 2005 (like 9-12 months ago). I didn't even bother checking out the video of this segment since those were already signs of poor attention to details.

Outside of the occasional complaints (some of which are just to stir up trouble), I just don't see that many complaints about the PSP's lineup that's out of the ordinary for a system.

Note that I said they were pretty much the only good games (along with a couple others of course) to buy early on. They also happened to be great games, so it shouldn't be surprising that they're still on top of the list around a year later; the PSP launch titles were unusually solid. And at least with Wipeout, I believe they offered a lot of extra downloadable content following the release, so that earned it some quality playing time long after it was released. It isn't like >90% games take 6 months to develop, although it would be nice if that were true. It would be awesome if every system would have tons of incredible games shortly after launching.

I've already broken down the top rated games. You know...like when I replied that only 4 racing games make up the top 20, and how there were other genres with a similar amount (or more) of games in the top 20. I went on to the full library just in case there were like 50 driving games outside of the top 20 (note that both NFS games, Midnight Club, and a bunch of other driving games weren't in the top 20). In that case, it might still be valid to say that the PSP has mostly racing games even though the top 20 don't seem to indicate that. But that doesn't seem to be the case.

I don't really have that much of a problem looking at the top 20, although since the PSP actually has a decent sports lineup, those will dominate the list much like they do for several other systems. Even then, the genre breakdown of games for the PSP is pretty good, at least comparable to the PS2, GC, and Xbox.

BTW, according to MC, there are 12 puzzle games for the PSP with reviews. 6 received "favorable" reviews (75+ I think), 5 received "mixed" reviews, and 1 received "unfavorable" reviews (DS has a practically identical breakdown FWIW).

Are we still looking at the top 20 rated games, or should I post all the 70+% games (usually noted as "good" games by reviewers) that are unique, diverse, and are worth buying? Otherwise, explain to me how you can say how diverse all the other systems are by just looking at the top 20, especially those that have a good sports lineup (the consoles).

Hehe...I see you're still using 'racing and ports' again. Check this out:
'shooters and ports' - 11 out of 20, 4 out of 10
'platformers and ports' - 10 out of 20, 4 out of 10
'strategy and ports' - 10 out of 20, 2 out of 10
'puzzle and ports' - 9 out of 20, 3 out of 10
'music maker and ports' - 8 out of 20, 2 out of 10
'sports and ports' - 9 out of 20, 2 out of 10
'ports' - 8 out of 20, 2 out of 10.
'sports' - 6 out of 20, 2 out of 10.

Again, just throw racing out and keep it simple. This isn't about the racing games.

Original properties? Boy, you're getting desperate. I guess not many, but you won't see many original properties in the top 20 of most systems, the DS included (Mario Kart, Mario/Sonic/Kirby platformers, Animal Crossing, Tetris, Tony Hawk, GBA remakes, etc.). If these other systems can't even get new original ideas for franchises, then I don't know why you expected the PSP to do so...and within its first 2 years on the market at that.

Funny...I was going to say some of the same things.

If I did that, I would be kidding you. But I didn't. I only took out the sports games...one single genre...one that hasn't even been that important to handheld gamers, so some probably ignore those games anyway. But I guess it really irks you since it also happens to be the only genre to consist of mostly ports, the thing that is vital to your argument.

I'd say that you should buy a PSP and buy Lumines. Then, either with the value pack memory stick or a memory stick you bought, download and play the LocoRoco demo. Then buy LocoRoco when it comes out. There, more than justified, and with minimal spending.

Seriously, when you put it like that, there's not much reason to get a PSP. But then again, I could ask why I should buy a DS if I only want to play racing games, action games, RPGs, and sports games (4 big genres)? Or why should I buy a Xbox if I don't want to play sports and action games? In fact, let's look at the PS2's top 20 by Metacritic (again, I'll change later if necessary):

1 Grand Theft Auto III
2 Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3
3 Resident Evil 4
4 Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty
5 Grand Theft Auto: Vice City
6 Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas
7 Gran Turismo 3 A-Spec
8 Metal Gear Solid 3: Subsistence
9 Madden NFL 2003
10 Devil May Cry
11 Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 4
12 Madden NFL 2002
13 God of War
14 Madden NFL 2004
15 NCAA Football 2004
16 Virtua Fighter 4
17 Burnout 3: Takedown
18 Pro Evolution Soccer
19 SSX
20 SSX 3

It seems like sports games and action games take up like 85% of the PS2's top 20; there's not even a RPG in the top 20, and RPGs seem like a big reason to get the PS2. New original games do as well (Ico, SOTC, God of War, DMC, Okami, SOCOM, Kingdom Hearts, Jak and Daxter, Ratchet and Clank, Sly Cooper, Katamari Damacy, etc.) and yet about 80% of the top 20 have a subtitle or number following the title, not to mention that none of the games that I listed in parenthesis are in the top 20 except for God of War and DMC. Also, 3 of the top 4 came out in Fall 2001 ( about a year after PS2 launch). They were the top games then, and they're still the top games now, almost 5 years later.

You seem to really put a lot of importance on the top 20 games (or even 10 in some cases). I admit that I originally brought them in, but only to show how many ports and racing games there were on the PSP (and that was more like the top 25-30, not top 20). I probably would have posted the same things I posted in my last post (number of racing games), but this was your suggestion. There's not really much reason to hold ourselves to just the top 20 games for any system if we want to discuss diverse and unique games for them. We could either expand it all the way, or put it to something like the top 50 (or so) games. Those would all still be quality games, at least IMO (like 70+% for most systems). At least I'd be able to suggest some of those PS2 games to anyone wanting a PS2, especially if they didn't like sports or action games.

 

Um...YA...RLY. You acted like I was going to take out every port (including non-sports games), every racing game, every game that wasn't original and/or unique, etc. But all I did was take out games that non-sports gamers wouldn't even look at, let alone buy.

1. Throwing out racing games doesn't really affect my argument at all. They could stay or go for all I care. I was just tired of showing how wrong you were about how racing games take up a large portion of the PSP's lineup (the whole lineup or the best of the best). I just wanted to simplify your argument; again, you might as well have been dissing the PSP for the number of 'music makers and ports" in the top 10/20.

2. I think original properties play a huge part in creating a diverse and deep lineup. But they're not that important when you consider how few have been made recently. Look at the best GBA/DS/PS2/GC/XBX games. You'll see a lot of Mario, GTA, Madden, SSX, Tony Hawk, Zelda, Metroid, MGS, Burnout, etc. Not a lot of original properties. Now if you look at their entire lineups, you'll fine a ton, but the same can be said on the PSP. Not going by the top 20 PSP games, I can think of several original properties such as Pursuit Force, Infected, Gripshift, Field Commander, Mercury, Tokobot (think this is new, though I thought I heard of it before), Lumines, Exit, and Kingdom of Paradise (all 70+, except for Gripshift @ 69). FWIW, I don't see that many more for the DS (<15 from what I could tell) that fit the same description, and it seems like the DS has had a ton of original games thanks to the approach it is taking to gaming.

3. If you think the top 20 games are totally indicative of the PSP's lineup, then you should see why I think we should expand the list. Apparently, even the top 30 was too much for the argument.

That's a great point...which is exactly why I brought all that up. The top 10 or 20 or 30 or 40 games for a system still leaves out some good games, as opposed to going by ratings or something like that. If we did look at 70+/80+/90+ games, there wouldn't be a comparison. But since we can only look at the best of the best, the two systems were comparable.

You mention the rating 80%...well, Metacritic lists 28 PSP games at 80%+ (more than the DS actually). If you're willing to go down another 5% (which are "favorable reviews" according to Metacritic), there are 46 PSP games with a 75%+ rating. If we expand to 70%+, which still means we get good games (certainly worth a purchase in most scenarios), the PSP has 69 games that fit that standard.

Hehe...I'm spinning things. Let's see a little recap of things.

The PSP has sold 4-5M units of HW in the US, and has been selling on par or better than the other handhelds since it was released. The software is apparently good enough to warrant a SW LTD number for the PSP that is on par with the DS, despite a 5 month disadvantage (which included the holidays). 25% of PSP owners have GTA (over 1M sold), while 1 out of 8 have SOCOM or Madden (over 500K for each). 4 other PSP games have sold over 400K, another 2 over 300K, and another 8 have sold over 200K.

So it seems like at least 18 games are popular with PSP owners. But that's all irrelevant since you think the PSP's lineup is lacking. A majority of the ports that are so bad have actually sold very well and have received good reviews. But ports are bad and make the library lacking, according to you.

69 PSP games (practically a quarter of the lineup) are good games, achieving 70% ratings from Metacritic. Out of those, about 8 can be defined as original properties. Those 69 games include a number of puzzle games, shooters (and other action games), strategy games, platformers, RPGs, driving games, and of course sports games. Each genre has at least 1 game that is an original property or exclusive to the PSP AFAIK.

But the PSP lineup is lacking according to you.

4 out of the top 20 (20%), and 11 out of those 69 (~16%) games could be classified as driving games. Only 22 games out of the 288 (~8%) games on the PSP could be classified as driving games. But the lineup is mostly just 'racing games and ports' according to you, despite racing games being outnumbered by a number of other genres in the PSP lineup.

Ports on the PSP happen to consist of mostly sports titles, a genre that has never flourished well on a handheld (although they have on the PSP). But seeing all these PS2 games in PSP boxes won't impress, according to you. Of course, the only times that really happens is when a sports gamer looks for his favorite types of games on the PSP...which is actually a unique situation by itself (sports gamers looking for sports games to buy on their handheld?).

In fact, let's see what gamers can get on the PSP that they can't get on the DS (those with 70+ ratings anyway), which seems to have a deep, diverse lineup with original ideas. Since I just mentioned sports games, let's check those out first. Out of the top 25 sports games (all 70+) available on the newest handhelds, all but 2 are on the PSP; 12 racing games are available on either platform, and all but one of those games are on the PSP. There are 5 fighting games on either platform, with 2 being DS games, but both of those are Japan-only while the 3 PSP games are available in the US. There are 8 3rd-person shooters (basically shooters since both don't have a good FPS, and MPH counts as 3rd-person too) on both platforms, 6 being on the PSP. There are 7 strategy games on each, with 3 on the DS (counting Nintendogs for some reason). 6 RPGs on both with 2 being on the DS (Animal Crossing and Mario & Luigi). So 65 games in 6 big genres (note that some games were in multiple genres). And the DS only offers 13 good games in those genres, while the PSP has 52 games; note that taking out ports doesn't put the DS on top either.

Seems like one handheld has a rather limited and lacking lineup, and it isn't the PSP. Even if all the 52 games were ports for the PSP, I'd take a good port over a bad game in those genres. Again, not everyone is as opposed to playing a port as you are.

In fact, what ever happen to all those criticisms you were talking about? I thought maybe I'd get some links or some sort of source to go along with the claim that a lot of people are criticizing the PSP's lineup recently. I thought maybe I was wrong and started searching some of the gaming forums that I knew about for reference. In fact, I believe you mentioned that we were getting some of those complaints from PSP owners here on the BBS, so I started searching some old threads (some very old since handhelds aren’t talked about much):

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=112783&page=1&pp=20
(recent thread about PSP or DS)

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=110298
(DS thread, but has some PSP posts)

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=101332

(regarding why someone should get a PSP instead of PS2)

(about Virtua Tennis, a port)

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=95295
(PSP thread 2.0)

Those are most of the ones I could find. Most BBS users seemed happy with their PSP and its lineup of ports and unoriginal games (that…and homebrew; the BBS users love their homebrew). In fact, in most of the threads I saw, you were usually the only one complaining about the PSP. Hmm…that’s strange.

Here are some threads and quotes concerning the PSP's lineup at Neo-GAF too (other forum I’m most familiar with):
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=105632 (about someone thinking about getting a PSP)

(joke post of course)

(by a mod/admin BTW; note that he listed 21 "good games" for the DS)

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=104749&highlight=PSP (thread about Gradius and the PSP, complete with a joke title)

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=104509&highlight=PSP (another thread about someone getting a PSP)

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=104303&highlight=PSP (thread about the Gamespot article I was mentioning earlier)

(possible reason why people are disappointed with the PSP?)

(thread was closed by the mod who made that post)

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=101640&highlight=PSP
(more game recommendations)

(about not getting any ports)

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99603&highlight=PSP
(about the PSP's current and future lineup)

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=98756&highlight=PSP
(about how the PSP has changed since last E3)

(by a mod)

I'd post more, but I'm getting close to the character limit. Read the threads for more, especially since I cut out a lot from some of their posts. I also checked out a few other forums like Gamespot, E-mpire, Beyond3D, IGN, and more (although searching for posts on this subject was tough if not impossible at some forums). More or less, I found similar posts. Again, I did find people criticizing the lineup due to ports or whatever (some of which actually owned the system), which includes people who bought and enjoyed 10+ games but were still disappointed (???). However, for every one of those posts, there were like 10 posts about how awesome the lineup is (including ports like Xmen 2 and MLB: The Show), and how the PSP lineup is better than the DS lineup. I have to end this post early due to the character limit.