[WWII] Remember 'Rape of Nanjing' - 70 Years After

Yeah, if Bush blew up some American buildings and killed 10,000 people, I would be way more pissed at him than I was at Saudi Arabia.

 

Mao did not order millions of people to be executed. He has some really stupid polices because he had no idea how economic worked, which caused mass starvation.

So you are saying if tens of thousands people died due to government incompetence during say a flood or hurricane, that is the same as some other countries invade the US then rape and murder us citizens?

 

Actually, in addition to the tens of millions of famine deaths, Mao did have millions executed, with some estimates ranging as high as 27 million killed in labor/death camps. If the US government was killing political rivals at rates approaching bin Laden, I would certainly hate Bush more than Saudi Arabia.

 

Of course Mao killed political prisoners, but no way it is as high as 27 million. Of course sending people to labor camps where they work and die due to bad health especially during the great leap forward is cruel but it is still not the same as the ways Japanese designed to kill in Asia (not just China).

I am no fan of Mao, my mom was one of the people who was isolated during that period, when I was two I had to go through that with her(write confession reports every night, face the mob crowds). My family assets on my mother's side were made government properties (several factories, cars, homes), but no one in my family would equate the Japanese treatment of the Chinese with what Mao did.

If it weren't for communist government, maybe I would be in the top 1% bracket like some of my distance cousins, and I would be a Bush bot lol.

 

Your knowledge about mao and Asian history is below zero. You're are in serious lack of basic humanity, and very possibly a rascist. I suspect you're a bonehead japanese, but pretending not. If you are an American, you are a huge shame for your great people.

 

Provide proof Mao killed 27 million in labour/death camps. Short and simple?

 

I am almost certain you are Chinese and as such your stance doesn't surprise me. I will let others' knowledge of me disprove your assertions that I am Japanese.

Proof that the highest estimate is in that range? Sure.
The Agence France Press estimate is that there were 2-5M deaths in rural purges, 1M deaths in urban purges, and 20M deaths in labor camps.

Jung Chang estimated 27 million Laogai camp deaths

There you go.

 

Yes every country and every people have committed attrocities and we should acknowledge that, including Japan.

Given though that historically wars have been much more brutal than we might accept them today the scale of what the Japanese did though was still unprecedented. The difference was in the marriage of modern industrial warfare with old fashioned brutality that made what happened in Nanjing particularly terrible. They followed that up with systematically killing, brutalizing, raping, enslaving and even experimenting on people throughout Asian including European and American soldiers and civillians. The scope of what the Imperial Japanese army did is only matched by their allies the Nazis.

I don't know if by your winky you are being ironic but if you aren't this is an example of what I meant earlier that there are some Taiwanese who have looked fondly upon the time of Japanese occupation largely as a counter to resentment of both the PRC and the KMT. While the Japanese did treat the indegenous Taiwanese better than the Chinese that is like saying that under Apartheid Indians were treated better than blacks. The Japanese likely treated the Taiwanese better to exploit differences between them and the Chinese to make it easier to govern Taiwan. That still doesn't change the fact that Taiwan was occupied and it didn't stop the Japanese from forcing ethnic Taiwanese women to become comfort women or forcibly pressing ethnic Taiwanese into the Japanese military. At the same time the Japanese didn't give the Taiwanese much free reign to run their culture and forced their culture and languange on the Taiwanese. The only reason why I believe many Taiwanese look back on that time as a good time is that the domination by the KMT Chinese and constant threat of the PRC has caused more recent resentments to take precedence.

I doubt as a Taiwanese who values your independence you would enjoy being occupied by Japan, forced to speak Japanese, forced to join the Japanese army and even forced to take on a Japanese name because that was what happened during the Japanese occupation of Taiwan.

 

I didn't take a hit from the pipe Lil was smoking, and I sure as hell don't think the Japanese were some benevolent imperialist power he's goading the mainland Chinese with. Both groups (Chang Kai Shek's Nationalists and the Japanese) looked down on native Taiwanese and their culture, and both groups sought to exterminate it.

Most of the younger Taiwanese adults want no part with Japan other than business or trade. Some have aging parents who lived during the occupation and can see first hand on how well the Japanese indoctrinated them. Some are deluded to the point where they deny the rape and abuse. They also believed they weren't treated as second class citizens. It isn't pretty or anything to laugh at.

 

then you must be some white guy who either A: watches too much anime( u have denied that) B: "been to japan/ have japanese many friends" or C: play too much playstation(u have also denied this) and think u have sooo much knowledge on Asian history.
u would be the first.

bottom line: u dont have family that experienced Japanese brutality first hand, so dont tell us we shouldnt be pissed.

 

u wouldn't be the first.

 

yea thats another reason i hate Mao, I could have been rich.

 

But I look at it this way. I have cars maybe not benz or lexus but they are nice cars. I have a decent home and not mansions, and I am way better than 90% of the people living in this world.

 

Good luck, Sishir. A lot of people won't know which Indians you're talking about. Excellent point, by the way.



Impeach Bush.

 

I think it's kind of sad that having failed to argue my points you turn to attacking the messenger. It is doubly pathetic that you do it using points that are not even true, and that I have already pointed out are untrue.

 

I see that the Chinese, Korean, Taiwanese, and other people who I am not sure of their nationality have spoken up to protest the Japanese brutality in this thread. And then I see StupidMoniker keep trying to lighten the horror of the genocide, the mass killings and the massacre by calling these people hypocrites. How sad.

StupidMoniker, are you aware that the people who you are calling hypocrites in this thread might have their grandparents or other loved ones killed or raped by the Japanese during WWII? Are you aware that some of these people might not even know where the Mao shrine is, let alone visiting it? But then you can't stop calling these people hypocrites because they protest the massacre. Do you even understand the meaning of the word 'compassion'?

 

I'm not going to make an assertion like syin on whether you are Japanese. Quite frankly it doesn't matter. Whether he's Chinese matters not either, because your knowledge of Mao as well as history of that neck of the woods during that time period IS limited.

You, like AFP, like Jung Chang DIDN'T provide proof. You provided an accusation. Anybody can accuse. You molested a 7 year old last night. Prove me wrong.

What's funny though is that neither the AFP, Jung Chang nor Jon Halliday ever provided proof or a breakdown of the alleged genocide (yes I've read the book), like say, who died where, when, under what circumstance.

Of course, it also doesn't help you that both Jung Chang and Jon Halliday are proven lying sacks of ****. Halliday, for his part, now accuses Mao of killing 70 million, looks like you'll have to re-up your pathetic, non-verified estimate. He also claimed that Mao was on the verge of losing the Chinese Civil War, until he received Soviet aids, revisionist history at its best. Then of course, there is the accusation he leveled that Mao refused to let Zhou Enlai get cancer treatment, gotta love it.

I think most Chinese wouldn't disagree about the detriments brought about by Mao, but it says a lot about a man from the trash sources he uses. What's the matter, 10 million is not sensationalist enough for you?

 

I'm not trying to lighten anything. I never once excused a single thing that was done by the Japanese. That is the interpretation of others who don't want to admit the truth, that just like the Japanese who enshrined people who committed horrible atrocities against the Chinese, the Chinese also enshrined Mao, who did as bad or worse.

Visitation of the Mao shrine is not a requirement. It is hypocrisy to protest the Japanese for enshrining people that committed atrocities against the Chinese but not the Chinese for doing the same thing. The same people may have had grandparents or other loved ones that were purged by Mao, or sent off to die in a labor camp. What does that have to do with anything. I am simply stating facts. Facts are not more or less correct based on the particular sufferings of the audience.

Your compassion argument, BTW, is bull****. The same argument could be made in a thousand different threads. The people you are talking to may have had a love one killed by a junkie - don't talk about drug use. The people you are talking to may have had a loved one killed by a ___________ don't talk about ___________. If the thread is that upsetting to them, they can choose not to read it. If Clutch thinks my posts are inappropriate he can ban me. Other that, I will continue to post whatever the **** I want to.

I said only that estimates ranged that high. When asked for proof, I provided proof that estimates ranged that high. I of course cannot provide proof of 27 million deaths, and in fact don't know what kind of proof you were looking for. Did you want me to list 27 million names? Provide links to death certificates? I provided all the proof required to make my statement 100% factually correct. You can complain about the sources all you want, but those are estimates, and they do range as high as 27 million.

 

SM;

From knowing you and debating you on CF.net I take you at your word that you aren't excusing or condoning Japanese acts during WWII and I agree with you that Mao did terrible things and is responsible for the deaths of millions, I might disagree with how many of these deaths were directly his fault but I won't quibble that Mao did terrible things. What I think you are missing or may not even realize is that your line of argument though does give the impression of blaming the victim and excusing the Japanese by instead of arguing the Japanese actions you attack the Chinese as hypocrites. Calling people hypocrites is more than just stating facts but giving a negative critique of those people. It would amount to saying that a woman who had been raped and is complaining about is a hypocrite since she dated someone who beat her. While it might be a fact that she has chosen to date someone who beats her by bringing that up in the context of a rape and calling her a hypocrite is essentially casting aspersions upon her character.

Further I also think your argument is flawed in regard that you are drawing an equivalent between what the Japanese did and what Mao did. There is a difference that Mao was Chinese and much of what he did was with the support of the Chinese people where as the Japanese were invaders. That is a key difference that cannot be glossed over. For example lets say my brother wrecks my car. I might still love him and condemn the robbers who stole my TV even though both have wronged me.

 

I just wanted to point out that it wasn't with the support of all the Chinese people. Ask those millions, however many there were, and their families whether they supported Mao, or the millions who thought the Great Leap Forward, and his other Great Leaps, amounted to something out of a nightmare.

Carry on.




Impeach Bush.