Who is better right now James Harden or Lebron James?

I haven't conceded anything. I value my eye test over your "stats" which don't actually mean what you want them to mean.

 

Gotcha.

Same response different person.

When the facts don’t align with their beliefs the facts aren’t facts. Their beliefs are facts.

 

Unfortunately for your argument, the facts are confirmed by the eye test. That's a lot more reliable than taking stats and extrapolating incorrect conclusions.

In any case, Lebron/Harden is a poor comparison and this comparison does a disservice to Harden. Harden is a great player, but Lebron clearly outclasses him.

 

And the post you originally quoted me on had nothing to do with who is the better player. Don’t try to steer this away from the original point because you know you have no ground to stand on.

I voted LeBron. I’m not insane.

What is insane though is to have this idea that LeBron and the Lakers and Harden and the Rockets have two completely different time of possession structures. Where Harden completely dominates the ball and no one else gets to touch it while LeBron shares openly and never holds the ball and all the role players get to have the ball for all this time that empowers them to magically start shooting much better than they did the entire regular season.

It’s insane because it’s not true. There’s no extrapolating here. LeBron and Harden touched the ball and had it in there hands for a nearly identical amount of time in our series. The numbers two guys Westbrook and Rondo, almost exactly the same amount of time with the ball. And same on down the line.

You, the eye test virtuoso, clearly held the opposite belief. You still belong to the crowd that truly believes that all our offense is comprised of is isolating Harden over and over while he dribbles forever and no one else gets the ball. You refuse to see anything other than that.

It’s not fun to admit when you are wrong, but refusing to do so in this istance is an admission that reality isn’t your thing. Only what you want to be reality.

 

Hah, no. I simply didn't want to derail the thread. I have plenty of ground to stand on. That's why there's so many threads that criticize Harden.

Because that's the reality. Harden is extremely ball-dominant. So is Lebron, but the difference is, Lebron is significantly better than Harden so it works for Lebron. Not so much for Harden.

 

lol. You have nothing but your eye test and what a bunch of idiots on Twitter ignorantly parrot.

It works for Lebron and Harden just like it works for every single other elite scorer/playmaker in the league. Doncic is no different. Murray, Mitchell, Paul, Lillard. All extremely ball dominant players.

And just so we are clear one more time. My post that you replied to was debunking the theory that Lebron and the Lakers are polar opposite to Harden and the Rockets as far as ball dominance. That’s it. The poster I replied to had it in his head that Lebron and the Lakers share while Harden and the Rockets do something completely different.

I 100% without questioned ended that notion. With facts. You have yet to offer anything but your beliefs.

But I will say that even though Lebron and Harden had the ball for nearly the exact same amount of time in our series the Lakers clearly showed their offensive dominance with far superior ball movement. They won the passing battle by....1. yes 1. 1 whole pass more than our stagnant, watch Harden do everything while everyone else does nothing offense.

 

There were bum ass posters here that believed Harden was better than LeBron even 2-3 years ago. LeBron is better than Harden today and he’ll still be better than him 5 years from now when he’s retired.

 

LeBron doesn't put his head down and lollygags walk everywhere when he shoots poorly into the 4th. Harden has horrible mental blocks when things don't go well for him.

 

Fine. Talk about anything other than what the original argument was. You and wekko have something in common.

I will say it one more time. The original poster I replied to xtruloyalty or whatever the hell said that if it were Harden instead of Lebron on LA that Rondo, Davis and Carrusso would never see the ball and therefor would never have been “on” because Harden would never let them have it. When in reality those guys get the ball on their team almost equally to the amount our 2-4 most ball dominant guys get the ball. Lebron and Harden had the ball in their hands almost an identical amount of time.

That is what this has all been about. Debunking that stupid myth that somehow the Lakers or ANY team with an elite scorer/playmaker put the ball in the hands of their elite scorer/playmaker less than Houston does with Harden. It’s not reality.

That’s it.

And for whatever reason you have chimed in with this completely useless opinion you hold that has zero to do with that argument. Who am I kidding. I know why you did it. You can’t help but chime in with things you believe Harden isn’t good at even when it has zero to do with the discussion at hand.

My vote was cast in the poll. It went to Lebron.

 

So despite the Lakers game-planning to get the ball out of Harden's hands, Harden still had the ball about as long as Lebron.

And you DON'T think that's a testament to his ball-dominance?

 

Not when you go back and look at previous years. In 2017-2018 post season, Lebron had an average possession time of 9.6 minutes and Harden with 8.9 minutes. What's your excuse now?

 

Harden is the best all around guard in the league no question, but as far as player LeBron is arguably the goat

 

I have been on the eye-test side of the argument for most of the time. However, I think its time that both sides make concessions. @jordnnnn makes very solid logical, stat based arguments. I think it is fair to say that the actual truth is somewhere in between the hard statistical approach and the eye test. Personally, I think advanced stats do a good job as a compliment to the eye test, but shouldn't be looked at as objective proof in arguments, because they can be interpreted in any number of ways. At the same time, you cant dismiss advanced stats all together because they do provide nuanced information that can get overlooked with pure eye tests.

Why don't we try to figure out how the stats should be applied to the eye test, or the eye test should be applied to stats, instead of saying one side is "right" and one is "wrong"?

 

Did he have any other playmakers on his team? Seems like you're cherry-picking stats and ignoring context.

 

I can’t harp on this point enough. Not to sound pretentious, but as someone that publishes papers in high impact journals that have could have an impact on well being...you could run every variable through the mill and even get statistical significance at some point. Doesn’t mean that it’s relevant or means anything. A lot of members here try to use their advanced stats to call reality into question when it should be the other way around. The math is never wrong, just how it’s implemented and whether you account for every variable. Obviously, the latter is impossible you can only hope to get close.

mad Tfor3 stated you would be an idiot to be on either extreme. If you don’t use advanced stats you’re essentially closing yourself off from something that could be useful. If you act condescending towards “the eye test” or the actual outcomes you’re an idiot as well. The problems are that the rockets find themselves in the latter which is why they run into the same issues year after year

 

LMAO do we? I dont need to explain to you how bad Westbrook is, or is Gordon that playmaker?? I know the context just fine, that's why I used the stat. Again, what's your excuse?

 

Nvm, not even worth it...at all.

 

It's kind of ridiculous that you don't consider Westbrook to be a playmaker. It's quite intellectually dishonest, especially since Harden wanted Westbrook here. You should be ashamed of yourself.

And of course you know the context. You cherrypicked a year when Lebron had a terrible supporting cast. What exactly do you think that proves?

 

LMAO, do you see what happend when Westbrook got to be playmaker? Both the eye tests and the stats confirmed he was hot garbage. He had plenty of time to run the offense. He got chances to attack a 4v3 and what happend? You should be ashamed of yourself for ignoring reality. And yea I know Harden asked for him, he was wrong.

What would you call what we have now? In terms of offensive talent, who do we have here that should have the ball more? Gordon got it plenty. Westbrook got it plenty and was trash and yet you still harp on this garbage.

 

Some players are built for winning championships while others not. Obviously James Harden doesn’t belong to.