Wasn't KG Traded? Allen and KG had been playing their careers with ****ty teams that barely made the playoffs. KG wasn't Lebron, he was good, damn good in his prime, but not Lebron, completely different player. Allen is a shooter, putting a pure shooter, a post up and "star" wing is different than two superstar wings and 1/2 the man KG was
Because Wade, Lebron and Bosh are at their peak. 28 years old, 26 years old and 27 years old. Garnett, Pierce and Allen were all 31, 32 and 33 years old.
So it all comes down to the fact that it's only wrong if the players are actually deciding their own fates, rather than sitting around waiting for some GM to build a team around them?
That just tells me that Wade, Lebron, and Bosh took the lessons of the previous generation to heart and realized they didn't want to waste their primes.
Hell, Kobe couldn't get out of the 1st round without a dominant post player, if anything that helps Lebron's case. 3 guys have won in 30 years with inferior supporting casts, Hakeem, Duncan (2nd title), & Wade. If anyone should sort of understanding this it is Houston fans, who as incredible of player Hakeem was on both sides of the ball saw a team flounder for 6 of his prime years. He quite nearly succeeded it getting himself traded too. Lucky for us it didn't happen but surely if he was a free agent at the wrong time the glory years of 93-95 would not have happened. I would really like to hear more interviews from West, Robertson, Irving, Mo Malone, etc. It is one thing for Magic, Bird & Jordan to say things, but let's get the perspective of greats stuck with lesser teammates and were more owned by owners. If Wilt was alive I'll bet he would support the Miami trio too. He could give a great perspective on a great player being frustrated playing with over-matched teammates such that no matter what he did his team would lose. He had to be such a pain in the ass just to try to move teams because there wasn't free agency, being a pain in the ass was the only leverage players had..
Pretty much. I mean, doesn't it offend you as a basketball fan, at least in the slightest, that a guy with the tools to be the best player EVER decided to take the easy way out? I mean, I've actually defended LeBron a little bit. A lot of the criticism leveled against him has been pretty irrational. But look at the guy. His talent and physical ability is unreal. Frankly, if he wanted to be the best player ever, he could be. He could probably be more unstoppable than Shaq in his prime. If he added a post game and refined his jumper further, there would be no way to guard him. With that kind of talent, don't you want that guy saying, "Screw joining Wade and Bosh, I'm gonna beat them"? Just as a fan of basketball, doesn't that make for better theatre? The one thing I will say is that with LeBron's size and athleticism, there's no reason why HE shouldn't be a dominant post player. He's got Karl Malone's body with Michael Jordan's athleticism. That's one of the reasons I thought his decision was so disappointing; I really do think he's one of the few, once-in-a-generation players who COULD win a title by himself, eventually. EDIT: In fairness, maybe he's just not wired for it. I've always thought that the reason guys like Kobe and Jordan are so great ISN'T because they work so hard. I think they work so hard because they're great. Maybe LeBron doesn't have that voice inside of him willing him to be better than everyone else. But that's kind of disappointing, isn't it?
Basically. How silly is that. As far as him taking the easy way out, everyone needs help to win. When did Magic or Bird ever have it "hard" when they won? Or Kobe? As far as Pippen not being a HOFer if he wasn't in Chicago, child please. Pippen was arguably the best all around SF in basketball when he was with the Bulls. He showed how good he was when MJ finally retired.
Garnett was old, it's more of how Barkley joined the Rox. When he did that, he's no longer the top 3 player in the league or close to an MVP candidate. LeHour just won 2 MVPs in a row, and he's crying for help.
Well, they basically had to beat each other, didn't they? Weren't the Lakers and Celtics both perennial 60-win teams in the 80s? Should those guys have just gone, "Screw it, we'll greatly improve our odds of winning a title if we just play with each other"? And for the record, I hate the Magic/Bird comparison with LeBron, given that they had much better supporting casts. But I don't think guys like that, or Jordan, would ever prefer to play WITH one another, rather than against. As for Kobe, we already know he HATED being in Shaq's shadow, and had to spend some years with a mediocre team because of it. As for the Pippen thing, if you guys really think that he was a good enough player that if he had no rings, he'd still be a Hall of Famer, I disagree. I've outlined why.
Child, please? You're erroneously assuming that Pippen could've reached his 1994 level without Jordan's influence in the late 80's/early 90's. How good of a defender do you think Pippen would've been had he not been competing against Jordan every day in practice?
And the Heat still have to beat the Celtics with Pierce/KG/Allen/Rondo, the Magic and what appears to be a very good Bulls team. If they manage to get out of the East then they still have to beat LA with Kobe/Gasol/Bynum/Odom/Artest. And those guys didn't have to say screw it because they were already on teams with great players. If I'm playing with Kareem then why do I need to team up with Larry? If I'm playing with McHale/Parish/DJ then why do I need to team up with Magic. Go ask Nique of he would have taken the chance to team up with someone. Kareem is better than Wade. Mchale/Parish is better than Wade/Bosh. So if Pippen/Rodman. How often do rich people complain about starving? Just because he wasn't on the Bulls doesn't mean he wouldn't have any rings. Any guy that's arguably the best SF in basketball for a period of time, and capabale of leading his team in almost every stat while guiding them to the postseason could probably really help any decent team win a title. You don't find very many SF's that could do it all, play point and defend. He just isn't a closer but was great, beyond great, at everything else.
these stars were not in their prime when they joined Allen, Pierce, Garnet. They all had their best seasons individually with their respective teams Sonics, Timberwolves, celtics. Wade and LeBron are in their prime.
I don't think Pippen/Rodman were better than Wade/Bosh. For that matter, Pippen was never as good as Wade. And you conveniently omit Gasol/Bynum there. Bynum averaged 5 ppg in 2009 playoff and Lakers won it regardless. LeBron would get all the credits if he could win with Bosh and some solid role players. But with another alpha dog Wade, it's overwhelming help and he's a Pippen for now.
Jealousy isn't an admirable trait--particularly in a team sport. As a Cowboys fan it would have sucked if Aikman, Emmitt and Irvin said "I am tired of being in your shadow". What if McHale, Parish, Kareem/Magic, Heinson, Worthy, Pippen, etc said they were "tired of living in another's shadow"? That is why I watch team sports, less so individual sports. The great individuals who also bring out their best in teammates and click with other great players are my favorites to watch. Better than Bruce Bowen or any other wing defender I can think in recent years. Pippen was right or very close to the level of Clyde Drexler. These guys are slam dunk hall of famers without their rings delivered from their greater teammates. They are not remembered more better because Jordan was just that much better. But he is that much better than any other non-Big to ever play basketball.
We're not talking about 'Nique. We're talking about Bird and Magic, the greatest players of their era and two of the greatest players of all time. LeBron could be as good as Bird or Magic. He still might end up reaching that level. Or, he could just be 'Nique. Regardless, I think you missed you point. You asked if Bird or Magic "really had it that hard". I gave you an answer. I think that if LeBron was good enough to drag the Cavs to the Finals, if he was good enough to take that team to 60+ wins, if HE had raised his game he could have won a title with the supporting cast that he had. I don't think the supporting case was as good as what Jordan, Bird or Magic had, but that's besides the point. The Cavs were the favorite to come out of the East. If 'Bron had gone 'Hakeem Olajuwon Beast Mode' in the playoffs, they likely would have. All those points are arguable, but again, that's not really my point. My point is, players like Bird, Magic and Jordan were the alpha dogs on 60 win teams. It was there preference to beat each other, rather than team up. LeBron was the alpha dog on a 60-win team. His supporting cast was not good as those others guys. But they were good enough to win 60+ games! They were good enough to get him to the ECFs in 2009 and to a lead against the eventual EC champs last year. If LeBron had raised his game to another level, they would have been good enough to seriously challenge for a title. And if LeBron had take his game to the next level and won championships with the supporting cast he had? He might have gone down as BETTER than Bird, Magic or Jordan. Except he'd be competing against not just Jordan's Bulls, but Hakeem's Rockets, Barkley's Suns, Robinson's Spurs, the Ewing Knicks, the great Sonics teams, the Malone/Stockton Jazz... Though let's say he never gets traded to the Bulls, and ends up a cog on those Sonics teams, basically replacing Det the Threat. He'd obviously have a diminished role, so would he have stood out enough to make the Hall? There are all sorts of hypotheticals. So let's just look at him as a player, and throw out the idea that Jordan made him lift his game for the sake of argument. He wasn't really beyond great as a scorer in general. He was a great defender, one of the best ever. Playing with Jordan, always going to the postseason and the Finals, that helped solidify his reputation with the media. He was a very good ball-handler for his position and a good passer and rebounder, though not at the level of a Larry Bird. Probably about as good as a young Grant Hill. He was a great player, but I don't think he was as great as many of his contemporaries, and I don't think he's a hall of famer based strictly on individual performance. For whatever it's worth, he made 7 All-NBA Teams in his 16-year career, appearing on the first team 3 times.
But I think you're missing my point. Those guys WANTED to be the best players on their teams and lead their teams to victory. They WANTED to be the best ever. Obviously they're main focus was winning. But I don't think any of them would have left their teams, much less their hometown teams, to join one another. They WANTED to beat each other. They HATED losing to each other. You don't think that LeBron's decision suggests that he might be lacking a trait that those guys had? You really don't think so at all? I do. And I think that's part of what's holding him back from being the best player ever. I mean, he's a great player, and very likely will be a hall-of-famer. But don't you want to see what he could be if he reached his full potential? Don't you think if he did that, he could be one of those rare players (like Hakeem) who dragged a team to a championship by himself? I sure do. And here's the thing. With Wade and Bosh, he doesn't HAVE to take his game to the next level. And I don't think that he will. That's what depresses me. I guess this is just where we disagree. I don't think Pippen was that close to Clyde's level.
This. The hatred for Pippen here in Houston masks his real accomplishments as one of the greatest players of all time in the NBA. It is unfortunate, but at least, he is admired everywhere else.
By this logic nobody should complain about the Heat trio then. Miami was ****ty and benefited from playing in the East. Toronto didn't even make the playoffs in the East. LeBron James is the only one whose team was expected to do something in the playoffs.
