The all around numbers that KG put up across the board rivaled both of those guys. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/garneke01.html Hakeem like help meaning for the majority of his career he didn't have a strong supporting cast. I respect his opinion on deciding between staying loyal to a franchise or leaving to put yourself in a better situation to win. Why would I not respect his opinion on that topic? He was in the same situation. Magic played the hand he chose. He said he came out early specifically to play with LA and Kareem. And when do you get props for playing the hand you were dealt when you get all aces?
Nah, Lebron just needs a couple playoff MVPs and a few rings and he is ahead of Kobe and Wade because he has much stronger regular season resumes & carried undermanned teams farther in the playoffs. 3 or more titles and 3 playoff MVPs for sure would do it--not that it is for sure he would win playoff MVPS on his team. Bird, Magic, Duncan, Shaq--they haven't got all the playoff MVPs associated with their rings either (and Kobe less than half of his)--but I am sure they don't trash rings that didn't come with playoff MVPs to them. Now Lebron catching Jordan is just a huge stretch and hard to see under any plausible scenario whether he stayed in Cleveland or not. Then again Jordan didn't get his 1st ring until 28--so you can't say it is impossible. I would say 5% chance at best. I think a bit if the hoopla from some of the recent greats (Jordan, Magic, Bird, Barkley) is a tinge of threat to their legacy, and in Magic's case, an end of the Lakers' recent run. I think old timers with more perspective (many of whom fought for the right of free agency) could give more unbiased comments and greater insight (Oscar, Russell, Jabbar, West, Mo Malone, Dr. J).
Why does Lebron's "sore" elbow count for more than Kobe's game 7 against Phoenix? Or his 2004 Finals against Detroit? Or the fact that his teams have been beaten by 30+ points in close-out games multiple times?
Even if he wins multiple championships, do you think LeBron can ever catch MJ while having a better closer on his very own team in Wade? I can't. By going to Miami, LeBron told me he doesn't care so much about his all-time legacy as much as winning championships. I'm fine with that. t_mac1, with Wade finally able to pick his spots instead of being responsible for what sometimes seems like 100% of their offense and defense, his career will be extended.
What's your point? If you're given the option of Garnett, Shaq, or Duncan as the cornerstone of your franchise, who do you pick? Obviously you wouldn't pick Garnett. No one would. So even though he may put up similar numbers, he's clearly outclassed. I know what he meant. It was a poor analogy; he's really underrating Cassell, Sprewell, and Szczerbiak. Minnesota was never really a contender. The Cavs were. It's not the same situation. You get props when your top dog starts declining and you take over the team and lead them to championships.
Or maybe he realizes that Szczerbiak is not a legitimate second best player and that Cassell and Sprewell were only playing with KG and healthy for 1 season out of 12 that KG was in Minnesota.
You'd take Garnett over Shaq or Duncan? Can you list your top 10 GOAT list? I'm very curious to see it. Just to keep it relevant, let's stick to players from the modern era.
How is a teenager choosing when to enter the draft in any way comparable to the consensus best player in the league, playing on the best team in the league record-wise, leaving his team to join up with another top 3 player in the league so he doesn't have to own the responsibility of leading a team to a championship? I also saw you trying to compare Lebron's move to Kobe Bryant trying to join the Lakers when he was like 17. Is anyone really falling for this crap?
Those other guys have all won rings w/o another top 1a/b/c player in the league on their team. Lebron will not have done that by winning rings in Miami. His championships will be about as impressive as the first Dream Team winning the Gold.
I said I might. The only reason I wouldn't is because KG trails in team accomplishments, but he has rarely had teams. He is an MVP just like the other two. He is better defensively than both. A better rebounder than Duncan. More versatile than both. Has more range than both. A better playmaker than both. He can't score like Shaq. He doesn't have the post game that Tim does.* KG won't go down as being as good as either guy, but it's a by-product of winning which deals with your supporting cast. He is probably the most versatile player we have seen since Magic.*
In response to the bold: The hell you talking about? By himself? You guys do realize that Scottie Pippen back in the 90's was a top 10 player, too. He did win nearly 55 games a season by HIMSELF, as the main man too. No he never won a championship as the #1 option, but he was a top player on damn good team. In caliber, etc. among the league(not by playing style) he was in the same level as Carmelo Anthony is ranked in today's standards. Top notch player, top 8-10 player, top player on a great team.
Oh really? Even if he wins a 2-3 rings, and is in the Finals MVP in all of them? Even if he wins 1-2 more NBA MVP awards? Even if he gets 1 season averaging a triple double? If he's able to smack 3 rings on his fingers(all finals mvps in them too), 3 MVP's, and 1 season averaging a TD, he'll go down as one of the all-time greats, no questions asked. He put himself in position to be the BEST player on the BEST team. No, Wade isn't the best player on the Heat. LeBron's regarded as best, or second best, league-wide. Just becaues he switched jerseys doesn't automatically make him relegated to third, or further back. He's still the best player in Miami or whatever team he is on(arguably not Lakers with Kobe).
You say he moved to not own responsibility. What are you basing this on? Him choosing to play with top talent like most champions have had? If LeBron goes to Miami, is their best player and wins the MVP then what will you say? Will you admit that you were wrong with all this talk of not wanting responsibility? Why should he seek an extra level of responsibility that Magic, Jordan, Bird etc didn't have, which is winning a title without another star player? TEAMS DON'T WIN WITH JUST ONE STAR PLAYER, ESPECIALLY NOT ONES WHERE YOUR STAR ISN'T A PIVOT!!! If you want to keep highlighting how good the Cavs were then start naming some title teams without a 2nd star player.* And yes, I am comparing Magic coming out to what LeBron did. Magic wasn't just "some rookie" when he entered the draft. He was LeBron before LeBron. He made a conscious decision to leave early specifically to play with the games best player, on one of the most storied franchises. You may choose to excuse him for making that decision because he was young, but the fact is he chose his set-up. So if you choose to play with freaking Kareem don't knock a man for choosing to play with Wade.*
Man, How old are you??? WTF are you talking about??? I swear, I wish teenagers would please refrain from teams/eras that they know nothing about when making this argument about "LeBron can't do it by himself."
First, you say that Garnett is a one-of-a-kind talent who is on par with Duncan/Shaq, but due to a lack of supporting cast, hasn't had the career of Shaq/Duncan. You go on further to say that Garnett is better defensively and more versatile than both Duncan/Shaq. So I ask you if you'd pick Garnett over Duncan/Shaq if you were building a franchise, and you say you "might not" b/c he doesnt have team accomplishments? So essentially, in your opinion, if it weren't for his poor teams, he'd be arguably the best PF ever. However, since he's had poor teams, he lacks team accomplishments, and because of that, you hesitate in choosing him over Duncan/Shaq as the cornerstone of a franchise? You're an idiot. I'm not trying to be mean, it's just an unfortunate byproduct of stating that fact.
You're treating Pippen as if he's Dwayne Wade...he's not. Pippen came from the same team (Bulls), not from an opposing team. Sure. Pippen helped Mike but in the end MJ almost always gets the credit for winning those rings. You normally don't hear Pippen in the same breath. If Lebron wins any, Dwayne Wade will always be mentioned cuz he helped Lebron. That's what my argument was about.
At the end of the day, LeBron> Wade and Jordan> Pippen. You are right, not at the same degree, but who really cares? All that matters is that Jordan was the best player on the best team at the time, and LeBron is doing the same. I think Jordan> Pippen is closer to LeBron> Bosh than LeBron> Wade in caliber, but it really doesn't matter. What matters is whose the best player on the team period, regardless of how distant the 2nd option is, or how close he is. Winning cures everything.
Charles Barkley has said that Kevin McHale was the best player he ever played against. Does that mean that Bird doesn't deserve the credit he gets as an all-time great because he had a teammate who was definitely a 1b?
Jordan, Magic, Bird and Russell all had one or more top 50 (all time) players on their team, in their primes or close to it. Few people discredit their multiple titles because of it. Next year will be Lebron's 1st with a player of that caliber. The only difference is he used free agency as a vehicle to play with other great players while those other teams used the draft or trades to build from within.
