Superstar Kevin Martin?

I don't think I've ever disagreed more with what someone has written on here than I do right now. If I had the time, I'd do a video showing all the defensive breakdowns he was responsible for yesterday. It was awful. He screwed up every which way possible. Losing his man on picks, misreads on pick and roll, lazy close-outs, flat-footed instead of going after rebounds, letting guys blow by him.

Evidently we aren't watching the same thing.

 

you should do that durvasa. kevin martin is one of the worst defenders i have ever seen (and he has the capability to be so much better).

 

I'd love to see that. First, show me anyone who doesn't "lose their man on a pick" which is what a pick does to everyone.

I never saw a "lazy close-out".

As for rebounds, you realize that it's just as important to box out a player as to grab the actual rebound right? He boxes out. He grabbed 2 rebounds yesterday. Battier grabbed 10. No wait, Battier grabbed 3. But Battier is a great defender, right?

"Letting guys blow by him"? Who and when? And do players ever "blow by" Ron Artest? Yes.

You haven't a clue about what defense is nor how to judge it.

Martin is a "good" defender. Not great, but average.

 

Let me see, with a handle like t_mac1, there's no bias here against Martin is there? Nah...

 

While you're here, t_mac1, let me say a bit here that I've found fascinating with this discussion.....

...when looking at what Kevin Martin does offensively, and at how well he does it, I am astounded at how much of that is relegated to useless production to the casual observer. Particularly in when and where that production occurs.

Martin's job is to score. And to score efficiently. I marvel, personally, at his ability to do that. I don't even really see the problem with that happening for the first 40 minutes of the game more often than the last 8 minutes;public perception being what it is, though (and the media machine headed by David Stern), games are won and lost (for dramatic effect) at the end. So I guess it's understandable to somehow see Martin as not as good a player as he actually is, despite his other deficiencies.

We used to hear the same thing about a certain someone who was once here (among other things) about how he "disappeared" when it mattered most, too. Nothing that he did before the last six or seven minutes of the game mattered. The only time that counted for him was "winning time".

We could watch Tracy McGrady play a tremendous 3 quarters against a better team in the postseason repeatedly....his efforts alone routinely keeping an overmatched team in contention....and that effort was routinely overshadowed as much as by those games ending in defeat for the Rockets as they were highlighted by McGrady's incomprehensible (and at times, indefensible) temperment.

McGrady seemed inclined to remind everyone that he didn't have enough help. An attitude that, even if he had the social graces not to say out loud, would never be accepted, because McGrady single-handedly gave your team a chance. That so often it is held that McGrady routinely failed to finish what he'd start is the definition of anti-team basketball—or the by-product of marketing an individual over a team in a team sport.

Basically, if McGrady could be all-world for 3-and-a-half quarters, why the devil couldn't he be that good for the final five minutes?

Fatigue? Indifference? Cowardice? Hubris? Spite?

It always seemed to be something other than the two most obvious things—quality competition and below-quality teammates–because McGrady is such an iconoclast. A guy you'd give the benefit of the doubt to (supposedly—and I doubt that very seriously here), if he stopped telling you that was what he deserved.

I like what Daryl Morey said recently about what separates good teams from great teams—great teams don't win close games as often as they don't play in any close games. If Kevin Martin can score so prolifically and so proficiently and you still find yourself, more often than not, playing in nail-biter-type games.....

.....not excusing the fact that in a pro league, EVERYBODY's job is to win.....

...there are a lot more things going on than what Martin does or does not do with x-amount of minutes left on the game clock.

Hopefully, Kevin Martin doesn't get dragged into a fight he's not going to win on his own too often, to me, t_mac1.

But for that to happen, not only does he need to improve...but so do his teammates...

 

Seeing where the screens are coming from, knowing how to get around them, having the fight to stay on your man -- that's all part of playing good defense.

I know you didn't. As I said, we weren't watching the same thing.

Martin boxing out? Don't make me laugh.

If you can't contest shots, can't put a body on players, and you let them get by you, that's bad defense.

Maybe our criteria is just vastly different. Can you name a starting 2-guard that you consider to be a worse defender than Kevin Martin? As a frame of reference for me to understand where you are coming from.

 

Martin's defense is not much worse than Battier's offense. You take the good with the bad. It is on the coach to adjust and hide their weaknesses, and play to their strengths. We did this at the end of the game when Battier switched to Evans. And we cruised to a win. Why Martin would ever be on Evans in the first place is inexcusable and a head-scratcher. Of course he is going to look bad on defense in that case.

 

Martin's defense was hurting the team in the first half even when he wasn't guarding Evans.

We were fortunate that Tyreke Evans was trying to do too much on his own at the end of the game against a good defender like Battier, and we were fortunate that Jordan Hill had his best defense performance as a Rocket.

 

Obviously we aren't watching the same player, nor the same game.

I've watched every single game Kevin Martin has played since he was a Rookie. He's an average defender, at times when he was injured, he saved his energy for the offense where his team needed him at the time.

I've seen him completely shut down Ray Allen when Allen was in Seattle to the point where a reporter asked Allen why he couldn't score against Martin and Allen was so ticked off, he blew off the reporters question.

So now, Martin isn't Artest, he's not even Battier. But he's an average good defender.

You, my friend, have such an incredible bias against him that you are trying to hold him to a standard that even Ron Artest couldn't measure up to.

But, you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how biased.

 

And in most games, his offense helps the team enough where it is a net + overall. Like I said, you take the good with the bad when you have a good player.

And Battier's offense hurts the team in many games as well. But I recognize his net contributions, which is why I refrain myself from bashing him constantly like many here.

 

Lets see. You joined this board in February 2010, and you profess to having followed Kevin Martin his entire career. And you're telling me that Martin is a "good" defender. And I'm the one that's biased? Ok.

Maybe he was a good defender once upon a time, but he hasn't been since he joined the Rockets.

 

You have a realistic, rational view of a team game. Good observation.

 

I never said I wanted Martin out of here.

Just discussing the topic at hand.

 

Yes, I'm a Kings fan who can't stand to watch my team right now because they suck. I started watching the Rockets when Adelman came along, I have NBA League Pass. Now with Martin, the only player that was worth watching on the Kings the last few years, I watch the Rockets to see a team that I enjoy. I love Adelman's offense and with Miller here too, it's like the old good times.

I'm just stunned that some of you don't appreciate what you have when you have it. The Rockets are fun to watch, have some good young talent, and are finally starting to put it together.

Excuse me for rooting for "your" team.

And excuse me for knowing more about Martin than many of you because, yes, I have seen him play many, many more games than you.

But hey, if you'd rather have T-Mac....

 

If he was really a Martin Fan, I wouldn't be suprised he changed from Kings to Rockets when Kev was traded here.

 

I'm no more a Martin fan than an Adelman fan or a Webber fan or a Bibby fan or a Peja fan....

You have to understand what it's like to be a Kings fan and get screwed over in the one chance you had to win it all. And now to completely suck again.

I'm still a Kings fan, but I've followed Webber, Bibby, even Hedo as they go to other teams, hoping to find some joy in watching games again.

I do have a problem when people completely bash a player for no valid reason. Whether it's Martin or anyone. It just seems that, for some reason, a few of you like to bash Martin in unreasonable ways and don't appreciate how lucky you are to have him. Just seems dumb to me.

 

Agree 100%

Disagree with just about every point you made.

To compare T-Mac and KMart is unfair to both players. T-Mac is a shell of his former self, and KMart will never come close to what T-Mac was, and to suggest it is absurd.

Since when did T-Mac only play 3 and a half quarters? He routinely showed up late in games (unlike K Mart), and took over 4th quarters. Playoffs included.

Many posters have attempted to compare K Mart to Melo based on statistical numbers. You can take any above average player in the NBA and draft a comparison of per 36 min numbers and claim that they are similar. Developing an informed opinion requires watching basketball. Landry vs. Nowitzki's per 36 min numbers are almost identical. Nowitzki's only discernable advantage comes in 3-point shooting. Landry makes 3 mil a year, Dirk makes 17 mil a year. There's a reason for the salary difference, and a reason why Landry was moved to the bench, despite his strong stat line at the end of games.

K-Mart's per 36 min numbers compare to guys like Kobe and Lebron. In fact, in some areas you'll find his numbers to be better. But he's not in the same league as either, and putting him in the same sentence as them is a joke.

The Nuggets were 17-65 when Melo was drafted. They went 43-39 the next season and made the playoffs, with Melo as the top scorer. They've made the playoffs every year Melo's been on the team, and played in a western conference championship which they've lost. Melo is a flat out better player than Kevin Martin, despite the salary save that Martin presents and statistical efficiency he shows on paper.

I'm not trying to bash Kevin Martin too much. I just think its rediculous to label someone a superstar when his game is so heavily predicated on calls, whose defense leaves much to be desired, and who disappears so regularly in fourth quarters (or gets benched). He's a very good player, but he is not a superstar.

 

Certainly Martin is not a "Superstar". I don't think anyone here actually said he was. They said that his numbers are "as good" as some that are Superstars.

As for relying on free throws, all high scorers rely on free throws.

Durant averages 9.1 attempts a game.
Kobe averages 8.1
LeBron averages 8.9
Wade averages 9.0

But Martin averages 20.... no... Martin averages... 8.4.

So Martin is just like any other high scorer.

 

I don't care about McGrady. I'm happy with having Kevin Martin on the team rather than McGrady. One of the best shooters in the league, probably the best in transition.

But he's an awful defender.

Kings Fan scouting report posted here in February:

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=182284

[rquoter]
Defense & Rebounding
Nowhere near the defender he should be, and last season saw a near complete collapse on this side of the ball. Early in his career actually showed a combination of feistiness when being posted despite his extremely skinny build combined with the quickness to guard some PGs. Rarely see that intensity anymore though, and one assumes that its because of a focus on scoring. Is mistake prone on defense, often turning his head or losing his man. Lack of strength is a problem inside. Gets some steals up top by using his speed to jump on lazy crosscourt passes, but rarely picks his own man, and gets relatively few steals for someone with his quickness. Can be effective coming back to help on the glass with his athleticism, but just as often prefers to leak out looking for the easy score. This applies defensively as well, where he will often head upcourt before the ball is secured. With Ron Artest gone last season, and John Salmons traded midseason, defense was really exposed as the year ran on, and troublingly appeared to almost quit on that side of the ball at times. A lingering ankle injury was sometimes pointed to as a culprit, but it seemed to have much less effect on his play on the other side of the ball.[/rquoter]

That's pretty much what I'm seeing. Add lack of intensity and focus to a physically-lacking frame, and that's a recipe for a very poor defender. Maybe he was better in the intensity/focus department earlier in his career. If so, we need him to get it back.