Overrating the Mavs

TheCat:

I disagree with most of what you've said, but it's in the realm of the believable.

But the Spurs are a better team than LA? That's really, really, strange to say. You're basically arguing that DRobb and Duncan are better than Kobe and Shaq. Pffft. *giggle*

Kobe's still improving. I really wouldn't be surprised if he's the best player in basketball next year. He shoot's for %, can create on his own, can hit the open 3, can post up, can distribute better than most point guards, and plays excellent defense.

Shaq is... well, Shaq. And he's not likely to decline yet.

Duncan's great. He really is. I consider him the 4th best player in the league, behind the above-mentioned guys and KG.

But Robinson is an aging center in declilne who wasn't as good as Kobe or Shaq even in his prime. Right now, comparing him to either of those players is silly.

Richmond, Horry, Fox, Fisher... good players that balance out Smith, Ferry, Bowen, etc.

 

Actually I don't see why people are UNDERRATING this team so much! They're loaded at every position, their center position may not be dominate, but they are so loaded at every other position that weakness is covered. And Bradley is a former shot-blocking champion. This team has go-to players, depth, can play both styles, and play defense. They lost to the Spurs because the Spurs were far more experienced. This team, without any experience, won 50+ games, and were a 5 seed in the West. Meanwhile the West got weaker (aside from the Lakers). I think the Mavs are going to be a handful, and one of the elite teams in the West.

 

Is Shaq better than Robinson was in his prime? Definitely. Is Kobe better than Robinson was in his prime? I don't think so. While I think Kobe will develop into a better player than Robinson was in his prime, I don't think Kobe is there yet.

Many people forget how good DRob was in his prime, after these past several seasons of averaging around 15 and 9(which is pretty damn good for a center these days) and letting Tim Duncan be the go to guy. Of course there was the 95 Western Conference Finals against Hakeem too . BUT, Robinson was named to the top 50 players of all time for good reason. He carried a Spurs team on his back to the playoffs every year during the early to mid 90s. He was an awesome player- the second best center in the league next to Hakeem Olajuwon, and one of the top 5 players in the league. Check out his stats from '90-'96: 25.8 ppg, 11.6 rpg, 3.27 apg, and 3.55 bpg, including 29.8 ppg in 93-94. Check out his career stats for his first 6-8 years in the league- they are outstanding.

Kobe on the other hand is a phenomenal playmaker and scorer. BUT, he gets so many opportunities to create and score because of all the attention that is put on Shaq. Put him on the Sixers instead of Allen Iverson, and the Sixers would probably have the same results or worse than Iverson had last year with the Sixers. Kobe will develop into one of the top 5 players in NBA, he has shown flashes of it, but I don't think he is right now. Top 10, but not quite top 5. Kobe's shot is really streaky, he can get on these streaks where he can't miss no matter what you do to defend him, but he can also get on these streaks that he can't make an open jumpshot to save his life. He has one of the streakiest shots in the game, along with Iverson, Scottie Quitten, Robert Horry, etc. I may get some heat for this statement, but I see a LITTLE of Scottie Quitten in him. Now, Kobe is better than Scottie probably was, but Scottie was an unbelievable player with MJ, some said he was the second best player in the league behind MJ (although, I disagree with that statement). But once MJ left the league, Scottie has been mediocre. I don't think Kobe's game will suffer like Scottie's has if Kobe is separated from Shaq, but I believe that Kobe's game will suffer. Kobe is a phenomenal player, but without Shaq, I don't think that he is better than Vince Carter offensively. Kobe will be a hall of famer, don't get me wrong, but he is not as good as he is made out to be. He is NOT the next MJ, but he can become a legend- he's already this good at age 22.

 

Also haven, sorry if it seems like I disagree with everything you say after the Ichiro thing and all.

BTW, Duncan is better than KG .

 

Ok, time for me to put my two cents in. First off, I don't know about the #2 seed but the Mavs are definitely going to get better next year. How much depends on what they do the rest of the offseason. Losing Booth hurt because he was an up-and-coming center with a lot of potential. That being said, I am almost sure the Mavs are looking around to trade Eisley and/or Trent and/or anyone other bench player to get a another center, so don't be thinking that Manning is going to fill the hole for Booth. Other than Booth, we are going to have the same team as last years playoff team except for whatever players get traded.

Dirk, Nash, and Finley should all be better this year too. Even though Dirk had a breakout season last year, he still has some stuff he can and hopefully will improve on. He can obviously shoot and learned to drive to the basket last year, but he still doesn't have the greatest post moves. If he improves those plus his post-up defense he will be exponetially better, because he will have something to fall back on during his off shooting nights. Finley should also improve too in a few areas. The weakest part of his game last year was ball handling and driving to the basket on his own. He said in his signing press conference that he has been playing PG in scrimmages to improve his ball handling skills and ability to play against smaller, quicker opponents. Nash although skill-wise probably won't improve much, he will be much healthier and fresher this year. By the time the playoffs hit last year, Steve had been playing for 11 months straight because of his time with the Canadian Olympic team. This year he should be fresher and not as banged up as last year. The team as a whole should have better team chemistry now that Nash has had his first real season as the QB of the team and since Juwon will be able to go through preseason with the club.

I also believe that we will have a much deeper bench next year. The addition of Manning certainly helps, and we'll see how Adrian Griffin turns out. It is also widely speculated that Tim Hardaway will join the team to backup Nash (which will help keep him healthy) which will definitely be an improvement over Eisley because his style of play fits the system better. If the backup center puts in 15 solid minutes, and with Buckner, Najera, and Harvery all having a year's worth of seasoning, we should be in very good shape.

So, it depends on how well the big men step up to play against the Spurs. If they do, I believe we can win the Midwest which would give us the #2 seed in the playoffs even if the Lakers, Kings, and who knows maybe even the Blazers have a better record.

 

TheCat:

Duncan better than Shaq?

Shaq blocks shots better, shoots for a better %, rebounds better, and is a better passer. He's also larger.

Duncan does have a better pure shot, but he's not quite as quick and doesn't have the bulk to get as good of position. IMO, that's Shaq's trump card: I've never seen quickness and sizes combined like that.

Duncan shoots free throws better... but he's not particularly good from the line, either.

Why do you consider him to be better? I can understand if you'd rather have Duncan for his future career since he almost certainly has more years left. But for just one year?

I think you just like the Spurs almost as much as the Rockets .

LilStevie:

Do you remember agreeing with me on anything before the Ichiro-extravaganza? Maybe we're just foils .

 

Could it be possible that the Mavs find this "chemistry" after they all play together for a full season?

 

Spurs:

1. Robinson is another year older and his play has play has deteriorated a little over the last few years. I guess we will see if he is worth his ten million dollar contract this year. I predict he will not be. He will probably still be enough besides Tim Duncan though.

2. Steve Smith and his bad knees is one of my favorite players in the league but will his knees hold up for a full 82 game season with starters minutes with no Bonzi or someone like him to give him to substantially reduce his minutes. I expect him to wear down as the season goes on.

3. Sean Elliot: will he retire or won't he? if he does who plays small forward Malik Rose? Both Sean at this stage of his career and Malik are a considerable drop of from the Sean Elliot of a couple of years ago.

4. Terry Porter is the only proven PG that is left on the team and he is 37. Does anyone expect Tony Parker to play starters minutes as a rookie?

The Spurs are an old and damaged team. I think that they will be very similar to what they were last year but even more vulnerable to injury and fatigue. With Robinson and Duncan they will continue to have one of if not the best front court in the league. There record IMO will be similar to last years and I think they could make a little noise in the play-offs if the can stay healthy but there are just too many questions for me to pick them as serious contenders this year.



The Mavs:

1. Finely is resigned and IMO will have another all star caliber year putting up impresive figures in pts, rebs and assists. Finely's weakness however was displayed on national television against the Spurs in the play-offs. He is a one dimentional offensive player. He scores almost all of his points from the perimeter. When Finely drives to the basket he is effective with an explosive first step but for what ever reason Finely refuses to take the ball to the basket, instead settling on the outside shot. IMO if he keeps this up he will continue to be ineffective offensively in big games because NBA coaches and players are to good at defending one dimentional players when they have time to study a player.

2. Steve Nash IMO is the real question on the Mavs team. With Nash at his best the Mavs were one of the elite last year. Nash runs the team with a precision outside shot, good passing and ball handling instincts and a deceptive ability to drive to the basket. Nash is definitely one of the second tier PG's in this league. The problem with Nash is his durability. He has missed substantial playing time since he has been with the Mavs because of injuries and last year at the end of the season he just plain started running out of gas. Nash is the key to the Mavs succes.

3. Larry Bird...er..uhh...I mean Dirk Nowitzki. Yes Dirk is the closest thing to Larry Legend since Larry Bird himself. This year the Mavs will become his team. I fully expect Nowitzki to place himself in the class of the elite with KG, Kobe, Shaq, Webber and Duncan. The Cat says Dirk won't improve at the same click this year as he has in years past but he does not need to. With Howard on the team Dirk should get most of his minutes as the SF this year. I could see Dirks numbers falling around 28 pts, 11 boards, 2 blocks and 4 assists. Those are league MVP numbers and don't require any kind of drastic improvement to achive. In fairness to Larry Bird, Dirk does not pass the ball as well but who does.

4. Juwan Howard proved he could be an effective scorer down low with his back to the basket or facing the basket. He gives the Mavs the best 4th option in the NBA on the offensive end of the floor. However at seven boards a game he reminds me a lot of an older Mo Taylor. Starting the year with the Mavs should make him even better than last year.

5. Shawn Bradley has a nice outside shot on the offensive end when the Mavs go his way but that is about it. On the defensive end he changes shots with his shot blocking and rebounds ok when he can stay out of foul trouble which is rarely. He is very weak and can be backed into the goal by most low post players in the league.

The Mavs weakness will once again be the Spurs strength. While I expect the Mavs to do just as well in the regular season I am not convinced we will see much of an improvement in the post season. They have no one on the team down low to stop Duncan, Shaq, Webber or Wallace. If Nowitzki can provide a big enough mismatch and Nash can stay healthy, and Howard does not forget to bring his offense to the post season then the Mavs have a chance.

 

BobFinn, I see the Mavericks a lot. They do not have the interior strength (rebounding, defense, shot blocking)to challenge for a championship. Their chemistry is great and, as I posted earlier, I think they are the most intelligent, best passing team in the league. They strengthened their guard position with FA signings but lack of inside game is their Achilles heel. In essence they are a fabulous perimeter team and on given nights can decimate any defense. However, they were dominated by teams with strong interior games, namely Spurs and the Lakers...they just can't match up.

That being said, Mark Cuban is nobody's fool and has created and environment players love. And now there is a new arena. It would not surprise me to see him go after a dominating FA center in the next few years once he is unburdened of the salaries of Bradley or even Howard.

So I see them with 50+ wins again, but seriously doubt they will make it past second round of playoffs.

 

lol, maybe.

But hey, I actually agree with you on something. I would take Shaq over Duncan right now in a heartbeat. Shaq is too dominant, and affects the game in so many ways just with the attention he commands. Add that to his unbelievable strength and quickness, and you have one of the top 5 centers to ever play the game. In my mind, Duncan is the 2nd best player in the NBA behind Shaq. Skillwise, Duncan is a lot better than Shaq. Duncan has the best low post moves I've ever seen since Dream in the mid 90s. But you're right, Shaq gives you a better chance to win than Duncan does.

 

Who wouldn't?

 

The Mavs are definetely an up and coming team. Dirk & Finley are both great players. Nash is a gritty PG who is a better PG than Stevie, but Stevie is a better player than Nash. As I said in another thread I like picking up Manning. When healthy he is still an effective player. Howard is a nice player but his contract makes him very unattractive.
Obviously the Lakers are the best of the West. Behind them I think Dallas is one of 3 teams who arguable could be the second best team in the NBA (Dallas, Sacramento, SA).
They do have a hole a center, like most teams in the NBA but they have a lot of hard-nosed players who want to win. Dirk & Nash both appear to be true warriors.
I like there team and I can see them finishing (record wise) anywhere from 2nd to 5th in the West.

 

Did I see someone say that Juwan is inconsistant? WHAT?? That's crazy, he's actually the most consistant player on the team. You can always count on Juwan to get 17ppg, and 7rpg. Those are not All Star numbers but if you watch the games this year he will hit those numbers almost every game.

Now my take on the MAVS ... In my opinion the MAVS have a great chance at grabing the #2 seed in the West. Remember all they have to do to grab that spot is have the best record in the MidWest, not the second best in the record inthe West. In other words the Lakers, King, and Portland could all have better records but as long as the MAVS win the MidWest they will have the #2 seed. In my opinion the Spurs have not improved themselves this year. They have the same basic starters except they have a wealer bench. The only player the MAVS have lost is Booth, which is not that big of a loss. He was only on the team for half the year, and didn't even hardly start anytime after that. As for teams in the West that are better than the MAVS .... I would have to say the Lakers of coarse, and maybe the Kings. You have to realize with the Kings though, the MAVS won most of the games they played against each other last year. The only position they would seem to have an advantage over the MAVS is at PF, and I don't know if any of you watched those games but Juwan OWNED Webber in those games. Bibby will definately help them ,and maybe the key to them being better than the MAVS this year. In my opinion the Spurs are about even with the MAVS this year except at PF. I predict that the MAVS will have the third best record in the West but will come out with the #2 seed. The Rockets will finish 6th in my opinion.

 

?

The bench is better off than last season, that's for certain. The
starting lineup is better off with Porter and Ferry out of it and
Daniels and Bowen in.

 

Yeah, Howard owns him too, eh?

Anyways, Mavs clearly have the advantage at the 3, but if you
are thinking that Shawn "Death Stick" Bradley somehow makes
the Mavs even at the 5, you need to get real.

Spurs had no problem with Dallas, despite starting Porter and
Ferry and rolling with AD at the 2.

The Mavs are at least a season away from really making a push
for tops in the division.

 

We will see, remember not many people thought the MAVS would even make the playoffs much less the second round. Just keep doubting them, you will see. The Spurs are clearly better at the 4, and 5 positions but the MAVS have the advantage at every other position including a better bench. Duncan may be enough to push the Spurs past the MAVS like last year but like I said, we will see.

 

I think the Spurs are a much better team than the Mavs.

Smith gives them somebody that can play the 2/3 instead of Anderson who is sized pretty much only for the 2.

They still have a hole at the spot that they don't place Smith, but pretty much every team has a hole.

If Daniels can finally come and play as a consistent starting PG, I see this team giving the Lakers a run for their money.

Bowen is a great accusition for this team, huge defensive presence.

But as stated earlier, a pretty poor offensive player.

He can occasionally knock down a couple threes, but in no way a solution at the Swing spot.

Parker looks like the real thing. Maybe not this season, but soon he will become the starting Point Guard(Especially if Daniels moves to the Two)

I see them starting Robinson, Duncan, Smith, Bowen, and Porter early in the season. Later Daniels or Parker could break in.

 

How does all this make them much better than the MAVS? Let's compare ...

C - Robinson is clearly better than Bradley on offense, and rebounding. Defense they are about equal. They both block about the same number of shots, and both can make a player change direction.

PF - No contest, Duncan is the best PF in the game

SF - No Contest, Duncan is the only player the Spurs have that is better than Dirk regarles of position.

SG - It is an insult to Finley to even mention Bowen in the same breath as Fin. Smith would be a better match up but even he can hold Fin.

PG - Nash is head, and shoulders above anyone the Spurs have. Daniels is not a very good leader, and would be better suited for the off guard spot.

The bench is a little harder to determine. The MAVS have Greg Buckner, and now Griffen to back up the 3 and 4 spot. They are two very good defenders, and Buck actually has an offensive game. Hardaway is soon to join the MAVS so that gives Dallas two very good PG's although both are injury prone so that could hurt them if they both go down. Manning is a very adequate back up at the 4, and Najera is a very tough energy player that has continued to work on his shot. Center is the only weakness the MAVS have comming of the bench. I'm not too sure exactly what the Spurs bench looks like but it would be hard to beat the MAVS bench. Help me out vj23k on what the Spurs bench is looking like.