[Official] Reggie Bush or Someone else -- Vince Young out of running

I am not saying he will score 2 TDs a game, but in college he was a TD machine. I don't see why he wouldn'y be able to do similar things in the nfl - not to the same level as in college but hugely effective. I am not comparing Bush to Parker, simply stating that Pittsbrugh uses a two back system VERY WELL. Wells could be our poor mans version of Bettis as he has gotten alot better at running with power, and DD certainly is a good short yardage back. I don't think he HAS to be a big time tackle breaker to be effective, Sanders and Faulk weren't. They made people miss much more often.
One thing to remember too, guys that have his level of explosiveness have a really easy time adding size as there is much more hypertrophy potential in fast twitch muscle fiber then slow twitch -so adding size should be relatively easy. The other thing with Bush compared to Faulk and Sanders is the talent level on offense at USC was so high they had another RB (probably going in the top10 ) as his back up, and I would have done the same thing with White and Bush that USC did. Ultimately, they both should benefit from sharing time as their careers go on because neither took a ton of pounding - like Eddie George did for example. It does lead to some question marks though, but could ultimately help in the long run.

 

When people started sayiong Jordan and Lebron that is when I jumped in. I'm not going to go back to the media debate because that horse has been dead for quite some time. Vince was on the cover of 4 SI's and ESPN. He also got his hype just as Reggie did. Both players have been severely over hyped.

You never ever heard me say Jordan or LeBron. This debate is not about what the media said but rather what members of this board said.

 

wait- hold up, a touchdown machine, didn't L. White lead the nation in TD's , he was the TD machine. Bush had 15 rushing TD's.
Yes he did score 1 every 15 times he touched the ball (below the 2 per 15 mentioned)

I'm not comparing Bush to Parker either, I'm comparing him to runners who were used in short yardage and goal line situations at his size and saying that even few of them were deemed worthy of the overall #1 draft pick.

Sanders and Faulk both were able to break tackles. I only said I haven't seen Bush do it. Sanders and Faulk had exceptional power(for size)- built down low. Bush may also but we can't say he played that way in college.

I really am not too far off your view of Bush except I see some real potential negatives and they are the ones that would cause me to rate him below sure fire #1 pick this season.

I think the Texans will draft him. He will not beat out Dominique Davis as the starter. He will be used in situations and at slot receiver. He might get some return duty and hopefully he will help us win some games.

Sad price to pay IMHO to pass over Vince Young. He is going to change the NFL thinking on the big strong fast mobile QB, watch and see.

 

You honestly don't think Bush will beat out Davis as the starter? If that's the case then you are too far pro Young ot even debate with. Who is Dominique Davis anyways? Is that a cross between Wilkins and Davis? If you think the guy is good enough to beat out the best prospect in the draft i would figure you would at least be able to spell his name right.

 

Are you guys honestly happy with D. Davis...I think his a good back..that's it..He just can't finish runs..I've seen so many 15-30 yards runs that he should have broke for a TD..

 

No one is accusing you of comparing VY to Lebron, not sure why you keep on saying that. One member of this board compared VY to Lebron, one person in the media compared him to Jordan, one football player called Bush the best football player in the world!! It's all opinion.

When the poster compared VY to Lebron, you probably took it the wrong way. You refuted it by saying that Lebron went straight into the NBA while VY was a redshirt freshmen. There is a HUGE difference between the NFL/NBA. It's okay to make comparisons between different sports, but you can't take it so literally.

Obviously, VY cannot have an immediate impact like Lebron did straight out of high school, football doesn't allow you to do so. Obviously, VY won't have international stardom like Jordan/Lebron do since football isn't a worldwide sport.

VY could compare to Lebron in terms of the stardom he brings to the team/league. We agreed that he would bring a buzz to the city, being a very popular player already and being a hometown guy, just like Lebron. They also have the chance to be one of the best players to every play their sport and one of the most popular athletes in the nation.

Like I said, I think you're taking the comparison a little too literal. I would say Gretzky is the Jordan of the NHL. Some could refute it by saying this is untrue since Gretzky isn't internationally known, but I would say that they compare in terms of winning in their sport, being one of the best ever, and being one of most popular athletes in their sport.

But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

I'll be the first to admit I think Davis is solid. My concern with him is that he has never been healthy (not even at LSU). I think Carr is good but hasn't had a chance to shine because of obvious factors. When we gave DD that deal I thought it was questionable because of his health issues. My personal opinion is that if we can package him to a team like the Jets with a draft pick (they need a rb) we can get Abraham. That would be a huge addition for us.

You bring up a good point about Davis not having breakaway speed and that is one of the most underrated things in the NFL. How many times should he have been long gone but got caught and we didn't get anything out of the drive. With a guy like Bush that doesn't happen. That's why you see guys like LT have 12 carries for 28 yds in the first half and you check the box score and he finished with 21 carries for 170 yds and 3 tds. All those guys need is a hole and they're gone

 

How many of White's TDs were short yardage runs? For example, should white get a ton of credit if Bush breaks a long run or a WR gets them close and he punches it in? I don't, but that is just me. I also don't think a QB should get a ton of credit if a WR takes a five yard out and makes a move and runs for 70 yds. VY certainly has a ton of potential, but he is just as much a risk as Bush. My other problem with taking a QB whether it be VY or ML is it seems like such a poor allocation of cap space, unless you can get something for Carr, which if they draft a QB I doubt they could. I for one would like to see Carr get a chance with a decent line and some playmakers at his disposal. I know many out there don't like him, but in my mind he has earned a chance to see what he can do with some help. If that help is Bush - great, if not I hope they get a tremendous deal to trade back.

 

I like your idea of trading DD to the Jets for JA, that would be sweet. I don't think they would go for it, but it would be sweet. What about their first rounder this year and their second rounder plus Vilma and JA for our first this year, DD, and a 3rd or 4th next year. We could still end up with Bush in that scenario if they take ML or VY, the Saints take whoever is left and the Titans picked up Williams, Hawk, or DF.

 

Agreed on the opinion part. It's the main reason i jumped back into all of this though. Lebron and Jordan threw me for a loop.

The reason I said that was to illustrate one of the reasons you can't compare Young to Lebron. I know how different everything is and that's why I don't like people comparing players to players from different sports. It makes no sense (especially when Jordan and LeBron are the two someone chooses to use).

Bush could have the immediate impact that Vince can't. In terms of stardom, no way. In terms of production, Bush could be on par with LeBron in his rookie year (even though that's hard to say what's on par with what in different leagues).

I agree about the hometown hero and the buzz he'd bring but not about Vince being one of the best players ever to play his sport. That being said the liklihood of Bush doing it is miniscule too. I just think Reggie has a better chance. It's moot because we're talking best ever here and that's certainly not what any realistic fan expects.

We definitely view the last part differently. If you ask me about Gretzky I say " Best Hockey Player ever". If you tell me he's like Jordan I disagree but i understand how you interpert it and that's fine. We just have different viewpoints and neither is wrong.

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. I'm just waiting for this dude to tell me who dominique davis is.

 

I wouldn't mind that trade at all but no way are they trading us Vilma. In that scenario we get IMO Vilma, Abraham, D'Brick and now have have mutltiple 2nd and 3rd round picks to move into the first and get a great TE.

 

They certainly didn’t have the oline that Bush and LenDale benefited from. I have watched a lot of college football too, and honestly IMO if SC had a LT, Ricky Williams, Faulk, Sanders, Bo Jackson, Hershell Walker, Eric Dickerson or Earl Campbell (about as far as my college memory goes)—both guys assess would have been on the bench as far as being a primary tailback. Bush would have been primarily as a WR (perhaps as Tim Brown was used) and long yardage back, and LenDale would have waited until next year.

Kinda like comparing Reggie Bush to Gale Sayers or Barry Sanders. Or the best part of Sayers and Payton like the ABC announcers implied. Or the “greatest of all-time” tune crap when he quite clearly wasn’t the greatest player on the Rose Bowl field (to all reasonable observers, SC fans as well), and arguably not the greatest player on his own team.

Sayers is a Hall of Famer. Some say the best running back ever in his peak. Lebron has a lot to do to prove he belongs in the Hall of Fame, and no one says he is the best ever at his position. Lebron isn’t even the best swingman in the league yet.

VY could well be a McNabb with a few inches, thicker skin, and who we know won’t puke with a championship on the line. I don’t think I’d take any RB prospect ever over that.

I’d like to hear a QB prospect this side of Elway that has a higher ceiling than one VY when you consider size, arm, athleticism, leadership and mental toughness. VY might not be great in the NFL, but he certainly has the talent to be among the greats and has a combination of gifts rarely if ever seen.

I don't think it is a weak argument at all. Elway, Montana, Staubach--those guys are in the game every play and impacting the way the defense has to play every play. Barry Sanders, as great as he was, doesn't impact the game to the magnitude they do. It is why Aikman went before Sanders, and Elway went before Dickerson. Franchise QBs are simply more important and have a greater impact on winning than franchise RBs--all other factors being equal.

And it is a knock that Barry wasn't in on goaline situations. Great player, one of the best, but shows flaws to his game, and none in their right mind would build a team with him over an Elway or Montana. Further, Payton, Jim Brown, Faulk and Emmitt Smith would be in the game every play they are healthy and mostly rested, period. Not saying they all are better than Sanders (Sanders has other phenom attributes), but it showed a flaw in Sanders game.

And again, if SC had LT, Ricky Williams, Faulk, Sanders, Bo Jackson, Hershell Walker, Eric Dickerson or Earl Campbell, neither LenDale nor Bush get the last carries or most of the game carries with the season on the line. They all were more explosive and instinctive than LenDale, and break tackles and finish runs better than Bush. What they would have done with the holes SC created would have been a sight. Maybe not as spectacular as Bush in highlights, but more effective when you goal is to win games and keep your opponents off the field.

Also, unless LenDale is not just a 1st round caliber RB, but also among the best RB prospects ever, I don’t see how it is unfair at all to consider PC preference for him in lots of situations over Reggie as a “weak” concern.

Look at Hall of Fame or 1st overall pick QBS versus RBs. The QB’s record of team success are overwhelmingly better. It is completely overwhelming however your define success (superbowls won, made, playoff wins, winning %, etc).

2nd, as great at he was, Marshall Faulk was traded in his prime. The bidding for 2 of the best RBs in the NFL—what you hope Bush becomes (including the league MVP), has been very low. But you don’t see the Elway, Montana (only left after he started to fade and SF thought they were a better team with SY), Brady, Farve, McNabb or Manning’s ever for sale in the prime, ever.

 

D Scar, did you ever play football at any level and if so where did you stop? I am just curious.

 

Tomlinson had exactly 4 carries over 20 yards this season - 28, 29, 41, and 62 yards. Dominick Davis had 3 - 29, 44, and 44.

Breakaway speed in the NFL is one of the most overrated things in the NFL, because its very rare that a running back gets through that many layers of the defense. It's much more important to be able to break the early tackle so you can get 5 yards instead of 3 and keep your offense moving.

 

Stop comparing Vince to Joe Montana and John Elway. Please!!!! He will never be mentioned with those guys , EVER. Sure you would take Elway over a Franchise RB, but Elway is not in this draft. There is a possibility that any of the QBS in this draft could become that good, but its a very small chance. Bush is obviously the safer pick. Vince Young is a faster Kordell Stewart.

 

Not seriously, too small. Besides, that would have gotten in the way of me watching.

That said, if Ronnie Lott and Marcus Allen pretty much acknowledge VY was the best guy out there and ready for the pros tomorrow (SC alums and one an RB), I think they have a pretty good perspective on that.

One thing I have noticed is the more “fans” have football experience they more they credit OL’s. Bush and ML had the best for two years running and nobody had running holes like Bush and LenDale had. Most more experienced commentators and experts recognize football games are won between the tackles.

I don’t know but Bush at #1 and Carr with probably like a 90 mil commitment and no OL to protect them sounds like a very unwise use of capspace (not to mention a lot in the future to AJ). Isn’t it interesting that Indy is going to let a top 3 all around RB go for nothing in a similar predicament. I agree the Texans need to move Carr if they select VY, for lots of reasons (cap space, unfair burden on Carr, team chemistry). I’d get rid of Carr’s contract and get what I can (hopefully late 1st). Use that $ saved and the pick for OL to support a team build on offense with VY, AJ, DD and other more contract value skill players.

 

This is the point I'm amazed that everyone misses. Even if Bush meets all expectations and is the best running back in the league, look at how highly that's valued. Arguably two of the three best running backs (Alexander, E. James) may become free agents, one because his team feels a #2 receiver (Reggie Wayne) is more important to keep, and the other even though his team made the Superbowl. Why? Because they are "old" after 5-7 years in the league. Never mind that they've shown no likelihood of slowing - they are still too big a risk. It's much much smarter for them to get a pretty good running back for cheap than paying a lot for a great one. The extra value you get is not very much compared to the price differential.

Why would we want to use a top pick to pay a running back MORE than you'd pay Alexander or James, both of whom are proven and likely to produce as much as Bush for the next few years?

 

Each time your idiot side comes out I have to respond. Kordell Stewart? Really. You might have been able to get some milage out of Daunte Culpepper or Mike Vick or Reggie McNeal, though I think that would be still unfair to VY because VY has not shown himself to be a chocker and lockerroom cancer of the former, is a lot bigger with a lot more throwing touch than the middle one, and VY isn't brittle and has a great college track record unlike the latter.

Name me a QB prospect since Elway with a better blend of strength, size, speed, quickness, arm strength, leadership and composure than VY.

Name one please.

VY deserves to be compared to Elway or Montana ever bit as much as Bush does to Sanders or Sayers. Personally I think they are all unfair comparisions to sadlle a college player with, but if we are comparing them to the best of their type, then we have to. And Best of all time QBs > Best of all time RBs, Franchise QBs > Franchise RBs, and good QBs > good RBs. In fact you could argue good QBs = Franchise RBs, and Franchise QBs = Hall of Fame RBs.

 

Major some people are more impressed by a few highlight plays than making the most out of each play and churning 1st downs, the latter which goes along with winning football games. Sound bite attention deficit generation I suppose.

 

I think Bush is the perfect example of making the most out of each play. Didn't he average like 7 yards a carry.