[Official] Reggie Bush or Someone else -- Vince Young out of running

Running (like the QB option?) Nope, scrambling-yes. Avoiding the rush.

The question should be if Vince Young sees receivers covered and has an open lane do you want him to make a big play scrambling like Staubach, Young, McNair or do you want him to take the sack?

I would coach him to take it to the house, the sideline or learn the QB hook slide. But I would definately give him the green light to take off.

That is how he will put pressure on defenses.

A quarterback doesn't have to take on linebackers to make big plays running.

I think a QB is more open to injury in the pocket than 10 yards down field scrambling, unless the QB is trying to lower his shoulder and take on the defender.

Vince didn't do that in college- he avoided big hits if possible. What he did do was make big impact plays-

How hard was he hit on that touchdown scramble in the Rose Bowl?

This guy will translate into the NFL, the only question I have is for which team.

 

I've never seen a RB get a constant 3.5-4 yards a carry through a whole game. When you look at a 100+ yard game, you will probably see a bunch of 1-2 yards with a few 5-8 yrd. runs sprinkled in and 1-3 10-15+ yrd. gains. If the RB breaks a 20+ yrd. run or two, then you're probably looking at a 110-120+ yrd. day.

Also, it almost sounds like you would rather him get 100+ yrds. than 6-12 points. I'm sorry, but we already have that guy in DD who get his 1000+ a season but can't get in the endzone.

By all accounts, Bush is the type of player that almost assures you 1-2 TDs a game. You don't win without scoring points, I don't care how many yards you run the ball. Besides, the threat of him breaking one at anytime opens things up for himself and others as any good running game will do for a team.

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Man, I'm STILL on the fence about this pick. I have kind of always been VERY slightly more on the Bush side simply because I think Carr can be real good given good coaching and talent around him. I also didn't want to wait for this pick to develop and I thought Bush would have a bigger impact the next few years. But, you can't help but really like Young. You just listen to him talk and you start to believe in something special. Now, i find myself flip-flopping daily. I just wish this thing would be over soon so I can start rooting for the Texans' new superstar.

 

If you're asking me if I would prefer my QB get sacked, of course not.

I also believe that with VY, you have to cater to his strengths which is to allow him to make plays running the ball. I just don't want him running the ball 12-15 times per game.

 

I agree,

But I would give him the green light if he showed that he didn't try to take on tackles.

In fact he would be a big play weapon at times, maybe 3-4 times a game get a big first down or a big run.

I also would run some boot legs in the red zone.

You have to design an offense that plays to his strengths without putting him in as a run option. His runs should be by surprise not by design.

He is a pretty good passer and I think he will improve, I think he is a better runner than any QB I've seen with size, speed and moves...

 

Try this one.

http://www.utexasclan.com/hornfans/vince-allstar-scramble.zip

 

Jerome Bettis is an example of the 3 yards a down type back (more in his prime than now, of course). If you have two backs that get equal yardage, the guy who's more consistent but with less 80-yard type runs is the one that's more conducive to winning.

The NFL is simply not a running-game driven league. I good back will get 1500 yards. A good passer will get 4000. Most of the yardage in the game is done by throwing. Running backs are used to keep drives going and to get to 2nd and 3rd and short situations so those QB's can lead their teams. A guy who gets 3, 3, and 4 yards is more useful than a guy who gets 1, 0, and 9, because the latter will more often league to 3rd and longs and end drives. Sure, he'll bust a play every so often, but that doesn't help in the 10 drives that he doesn't do that.

 

Exactly. If we draft him, I'm glad that we have a guy like Kubiak that has a background with scrambling quarterbacks. That's why I would be fine with Young. I just think having a guy like Reggie Bush would open up opportunities to others around him, because of his play ability.

 

Hmm, I'm not sure I buy that it's a "passing game driven league" just because there are more pass yards than rush yards. A mediocre passer will also get plenty of passing yards. Passing plays are on average longer. I haven't read anything that says the passing game is more important than the running game. Besides, Reggie is going to be very active in the passing game.

And in any case, how does that justify taking Vince Young over Reggie Bush? You need good players at every position. Sometimes that means taking an offensive lineman or a linebacker first. I believe you take the best prospect and most reports say Bush is the best prospect in the draft.

 

Actually the 1-2 TDs is a big stretch. Reggie Bush wasn't even the biggest TD producer on his college team, that being LenDale White. Reggie and Jarrett were very distant 2-3 TD makers for them. You want someone to finish drives with TDs, get someone who finishes hard to compliment DD.

QBs recent and old who have rushed for over 500 yards in a single season:

-Culpepper (609)
-Cunningham (942)
-S. Young (537)
-McNabb (627)
-McNair (647)
-M. Vick (902)

Over 300 yards in a season:
-Elway (304)
-Staubach (343)
-Tarkenton (376)
-Bradshaw (346)
-A. Brooks (358)
-J. Garcia (414)
-M. Brunell (480)
-D Carr (309)

I personally think having the QB who can hurt you with his legs downfield or buying more time to throw via scrambling when there is nothing else available is a huge bonus.

Further, a lot of these guys had long careers, I don't think standing in the pocket with the big arm but little mobility neccesarily helps longevity (Aikman and his concussions because he couldn't avoid the big hit, we saw what happended to Palmer this year, Joe Namath didn't play long).

When I see this list the players that most remind me of VY at this point are McNabb, McNair, Steve Young, Staubach, and Cunningham. Vick and Brooks don't have the passing touch and ability to scan the whole field, and Culpepper has the physical tools but also is saddled with this choker, non-leader, factor that seems in exact opposite of VY's mental make-up. Mark Brunell was pretty good when young, but just seems another level less athletically gifted. I would bring up Elway, but it is just too unfair to compare any young QB to him no matter how good they look in college.

I agree. Remember in the Rose Bowl it was Leinart who got his bell rung, not VY. In fact ML got his bell rung in other games in ways I have not seen happen to VY.

VY may be overaggresive with the run early in his career, but he will learn to avoid the big hit (run OB, slide) and further use the natural ability to scramble more so to set up the big play via passing than for running downfield. It was the natural progression for lots of great passing/running QBs on the lists above.

 

I don't think it is a passing game driven league either. But a great QB can certainly impact and entire offense more so than a great RB. The playoff and superbowl history of the impact of a Hall of Fame QB or the 1st overall picks of QB who did work out is much more impressive (understatement of the year) than the history of the impact of Hall of Fame Rbs or the 1st overall picks of RBs.

Thus this first question the Texans should face is build around Carr or build around Vince Young. I know where I would hedge my bet as the more likely franchise QB, and it isn't on Carr. Now if you decide Carr is the better bet than VY such that you can afford to passon VY, then sure consider Reggie Bush.

"Reports" said Bush was the best college football player too, and I suspect most of these "reports" are based on about as much evidence (or lack therof) of what the Heisman voting was based on. Without combine like workouts such reports at this stage of the pre-draft are not worth much, certainly the field performance does not favor Bush over Young as a college player, and I can't see where VY would be knocked substantially as a pro prospect either. When the competition got more pro-like (faster defenses, better opponents), VY distinguished himself even more as an athlete and leader from all other college players (in fact it is not hard to argue ML was better than RBush and more critical to USC's success when the going got tough).

 

You guys have to realize that VY is 6-5 230+! He is bigger than alot of LBs, and I think he can DISH out the pushment and take some. The NFL has never seen a player like VY.

 

Incidently, two guys at the Rose Bowl consistently added 2-3 or more yards when the plays looked over. They were LenDale White and Vince Young. VY doesn't look strong (looks like he has skinny arms), but he sure plays strong. He even broke tackles and finnished plays with DEs grabbing him, I assume he must be pretty darn strong.

But no, I don't want VY taking on Pro LBs. Just because he might be able to doesn't mean he should. Eventually he will learn to take as few hits as possible because even if he were to win his fair share of battles that isn't the best for his long term health or his team's fortune.

 

# 5 Donovan McNabb
Position: QB
Height: 6-2
Weight: 240
Born: 11/25/1976
College: Syracuse
NFL Experience: 7

# 11 Daunte Culpepper
Position: QB
Height: 6-4
Weight: 264
Born: 01/28/1977
College: Central Florida
NFL Experience: 7

Oddly and against my case for Vince, both are out with career threatening knee injuries.

 

I'm ok with 500. That averages out to roughly 30 yards a game. I do think that he should use his athleticism, if he sees an opportunity. I just don't want him running down the field 12-15 times a game. Steve Young's 537 was on 76 attempts, not 155.

Do you think he should run 12-15 times per game?

 

and Carson Palmer too (stand still QB).

Ki-Jana Carter, Terrel Davis, Bo Jackson, Gale Sayers all cut drastically short with injuries too.

No guarantees for a long careers in football unless you are a kicker.

But all things being equal I'd take my chances on an athletic QB who can avoid the rush lasting over a stand still QB, or a running back

 

McNabb is out with a hernia.

 

Certainly the aim should not be for 12-15 rushes per game. I'd say half that or less, say 80-90 carries on the year. That is the upper range of S. Young, Brunnell, McNabb, McNair and Culpepper. VY is probably faster and more elusive than all of them, so a 7-8YPC on those attempts is not unreasonable (550-800YPS on those carries).

I wouldn't want to see VY run as much as Vick and Cunningham in their peak seasons--120 and 118 respectively. IMO if you are running like 120 times (8 per game), not only are you taking a lot of extra shots but probably you are leaving a lot of bigger plays you could get on the field via throwing during the scramble that are not taken.

I'd aim for 2700-3300 yards passing (on good efficiency) and 600-700 yards rushing, that makes one heck of a difficult player to contend with and opens up oppertunnities for all his teammates because of how much opponents D must scheme for him (using spies, having DEs play contain rather than rush upfield, killing stunts that could leave holes).



not after a few years into the league. I think about 80 carries per season, probably around 600 yards is about right.

 

of course. its always something. dont doubt VY, youll end up looking foolish

 

Yeah, way to evaluate talent. A made for television competition with what a total of what 3-4 skills and 3 reps per skill. Yeppers, let's forget VY. Forget 3 years at UT, let's base it on this silly meaningless competition.

 

what are you talking about?

the question was VY's arm strength and ability to make throws. he threw the ball 60+ yards, and threw a perfect 35+ yard ball with perfect touch. isnt this competition in effect what the combine is? and if you looked at the 3 years of VY's collegiate career (atleast his jr year), you wouldn't have questions about arm strength or the ability to make throws...