[Official] Reggie Bush or Someone else -- Vince Young out of running

But who is the last running back that "carried" his team to a superbowl title? The Patriots teams essentially didn't even have a running back (until Dillon in the last one). Baltimore had a great one, but wwas known for their defense. Denver had a great one, but was known for their QB. Tampa Bay didn't have one. Green Bay was known for their QB. Dallas was led by their QB as well, although they also had a great running back.

There's even talk that the Seahawks don't think Shaun Alexander is worth the money he'll ask for this offseason and he'll be let go - and he's the MVP, set a TD record, led the league in yards, and has been a big part of this year's superbowl run. Yet, he's considered expendible. Same with Edgerrin James. If these guys are not worth paying, is an unproven Reggie Bush worth 1st pick money?

The success of running backs in this league is more based on the O-Line than the runner. Yeah, a great running back will break more tackles and get extra yards, but in terms of long-term success, they won't be anything special without the dominant o-line. And with that o-line, random running backs do great as well. It's not surprising that the teams with the dominant O-Lines (Denver, Kansas City, Pitt, Indy, etc) are year-in and year-out the teams with the best running backs even when they change backs like Pitt, KC, and Denver have.

 

Good post. There are questions about both players and I honestly don't think you can go wrong with either one.

With that being said, there could be a major backlash for the Texans if RB doesn't live up to the hype (and let's face it, he's been hyped up more than any other player EVER). I've always said I hope they don't pick VY because of the popularity factor alone, but Chizik would be an instant favorite if he chose VY to turn this franchise around.

 

Let's actually disect your argument for a second team by team.

Pats- As soon as their defense was depleted due to FA's and injuries they got bounced. They also relied on an offense that didn't make mistakes (Brady is a star QB but not because he's a phenom physically but because he's a winner who doesn't cost his team). Let's also take into account great special teams and the best clutch kicker in the NFL.

Baltimore- obviously it was their defense here as well. Jamal Lewis was a great back and they simply asked Dilfer not to turn the ball over.

Denver- They had the best of both worlds. Elway is one of the greatest QB's ever but he didn't win until TD came along and helped him out.

TB- Actually, they had two rb's. Say what you want about Warrick Dunn but he's been a good rb his entire career. Alstott was also in his prime and they had one of the best defenses in football. All Johnson had to do was throw it to Keyshawn and not turn it over. Very similar to Baltimore's situation when they won.

GB- I'll give you this one. Favre was the main guy and carried those teams. We are talking about Brett Favre in his prime though here.

Dallas- I'm pretty sure in you asked any Dallas fan they would tell you the heart and sould of that team was Emmitt Smith. Aikman wasn't the leader of that team, Emmitt always was. They also has Irvin and a perfect compliment in Harper. Let's not forget one of the best o-line's in history and an outstanding defense. That's why they built a dynasty. If anything, I think Aikman is somewhat overrated.

Everyone has said if the Seahawks don't pay Alexander they're crazy. Alexander and the defense make that team. Hasselback is a solid QB but i don't think he's a star. The Colts are in a cap situation. They already had to pay Manning, Harrison, defenders such as Corey Simon and now they have to pay Wayne and James. It's more of a factor that they just simply don't have the money then they aren't willing to pay EJ.

I guess I don't understand what your argument is here. You're making a very obvious statement when you say that a great O-line will make for a good to great running game. However, Priest and LJ are both great backs. Their o-lines really help them but they would be good anyways. Bettis is one of the top rushers in NFL history. I'll definitely give you Denver. The production of their backs is largely based on their blocking scheme (hello Gary Kubiak).

If anything your examples cite the need for a great defense and o-line then anything else. Young definitely isn't Favre and that is the only QB who one could argue pretty much carried the team without a superior defense or RB (although Leens was a lot like DD).

We'll just have to wait and see but I'm much more confident giving carr a shot with a guy like Bush , and upgrading the line , defense and TE. Give david some time and couple of playmakers and let's see what he can do. We've already invested all this time and effort in him and he's never had a chance to work out of a scheme that suits him. It doesn't coist us much to keep him and we have a better chance of making an immedite improvement next season by drafting Bush and keeping Carr then drafting young.

 

Even if you could successfully argue that QB's are a bit more important than RB's for a for a football team, would you take the lesser rated QB over the highly rated RB? And how come no one is arguing for Leinart? From what I've read he'll be the first QB taken.

 

I said that a while ago (the Leinart thing). The reason is pretty simple, because we don't really need a QB. Even the guys on the radio admit if Young isn't from Houston and didn't go to UT we aren't having this discussion.

 

Well, that's a lot of upgrades that need to be done.

Here's my personal take, yes we've invested a lot time and effor w/ Carr and my question is: How much longer are we willing to wait on Carr? Yes, he hasn't had that much to work with the past 4 years, but he hasn't done anything to help himself either.

When is it time to say, okay, maybe we should start looking in a different direction. 6, 7, 8 years into the league?

Actually, it is giong to cost quite a bit to keep Carr. I believe he is due a 8M bonus and contract extension. If we sign Carr for his extension and plan to keep him this season, we better plan on keeping him for years to come because I don't see a lot of teams wanting him and his contract if he doesn't perform up to it.

 

that's pretty ridiculous. some college football analysts were saying Young's rose bowl performance was the greatest college football performance in the history of the sport, some are calling him one of the greatest college football players ever, and you really don't think people would be having this discussion if he wasn't from Houston or played for UT?

 

Mr. Clutch- You seem to be caught on the "what about Leinart" idea. Here's the deal, Leinart and Carr are mirror players in that they are both pocket passers. Young is a completely different type of QB than Carr and Leinart, therefore, brings a much different perspective.

So for a team that is looking for a traditional QB, Leinart would be the answer. But for a team like the Texans, who has a traditional QB, might be looking at a dual-threat QB like Young to turn things around.

Let's say L. White was rated higher than Bush. The Texans would still probably pick Bush since he's a different type of back than White and different from DD.

 

There are a ton of upgrades that need to be made. We need another DB, a hard hitting dsafety, a pass rusher, a couple of ol's and a #2 receiver. I don't think anyone will disagree with that.

Carr had a good season two years ago. That was really theo nly season you can even say he had a chance. It was DD's most productive and AJ went to the pro bowl. Last year was a complete disaster. What do you want Carr to though honestly? The guy has absolutely no time to thrwo the ball. He has displayed arm strength and mobility. He's also stood in there and took a tremendous pounding and barely missed time (toughness).

I think you look in a different direction when you can honestly look at Carr and say that he had a fair shot at success. I'd like to hear an argument as to how he's had that. They give him the chance to call his plays this season in the first half and he puts up 24 points in the first half. Then in the second half it was back to the same old capers/ Pendy bs. The people who have been brought in to evaluate carr all have said he has the tools to be a good to great QB so I'm inclined to listen to them.

It will cost us to keep Carr but not near as much as it will cost us to bring in another first round pick at QB. Young can't play right away and even if they let him it would be completely unfair. He'd get dismantled like carr did his first season (I think VY is less pro ready then Carr and the fact that he scambles wouldn't be very good for him as a rookie QB in terms on injury coincerns.) Bush can make an impact now.

 

Who's saying his performance wasn't great? It was one of the best performances ever in my opinion. Anyone who says Young is one of the best college football players ever is on crack. That's not a knock on Young or what he accomplished but there's tons of guys who have had better college careers. Archie Griffin won two Heismans for crying out loud.

I honestly don't think this would be a discussion is Vince wasn't a hometown kid. If he went to Ohio State some may be discussing it but it would be nowhere near the way it is now.

 

Actually, Leinart and Carr don't compare well at all. Carr is a much better athlete and excels when moving around. He hasn''t had a pocket to prove he's a pocket passer. He did show the ability to make plays when rolling out as well as scramble. Carr also has a better arm then Leinart. Leinart is more accurate then Carr and goes through his reads better (foootball IQ).

 

But Bush is considered the best college player ever? Bush didn't even lead the NCAA is rushing yards and he's considered the best RB to ever put on a helmet?

VY had arguably one of the greatest careers a college QB has ever had. 32-2 as a starter, 2 Rose Bowl victories (1 being a NC), 2 Rose Bowl MVPs, first player to ever throw for 3,000 and run for 1,000. Shattered the the National Championship game record for single yards by a player by over 100 yards.

 

So you think that even though the dude had one of greatest indivual performances in one of the highest rated championship games that the only reason this is a debate is because he is from Houston?

as far as your assessment that I'm on crack, young had a season not every matched, 3000/1000, had a championship game never matched 247/200, and is one of the top all-time winningest qbs in college history and you think he doesn't belong in the discussion?

 

Fans of the Saints, Titans, Raiders, and Jets are arguing the same thing on other football boards, obviously not as much as here, but it's not only Texan's fans who are intrigued.

 

The compare well when trying to compare him to VY. Both are primarily pocket passers and as far as saying Leinart cannot scramble, he never really had to in college, just like Carr didn't.

 

That's 267/200 pg.

 

Did I ever say Bush was the best college player ever? The answer is clearly no because I don't think he is.

I heard a lot of analysts say Bush is one of the best prospects ever and that Young's performance in the Rose Bowl was one of the best ever. I won't argue with either of those two points.

VY had a great career. I'm not debating that. Young is an intriguing NFL prospect. I'm not debating that either. However, I just don't think he's what's best for the Texans. I'm a Texans fan first and I want what's best for the team. I challenge you to find me more then 1 or two mock drafts out of thousands that project Young over Bush. In fact, 75% have Leinart going ahead of VY. Now personally I'd roll the dice with Young but some sscouts are even arguing that Cutler is the best QB of the group. There is no debate when it comes to Bush.

 

the scouts don't know.

we don't know.

no one knows.

everyone is a gamble.

the entire draft is a gamble.

take VY and don't look back.

 

Most of those guys (Culpepper, McNair, McNabb) were contributing mightly by their 2nd year in the pros. Like you said two of the three did not play in pro style offenses, and the other one with a pro style offense (and personally, the most overrated because of his very unVince like composure and leadership when the pressure mounts--Culpepper) had chopped liver in terms of the athletes and schemes the competition brought against him relative to Vince Young. If Steve McNair can go from a shot gun (at Alcorn State no less) to contributing by year 2, the taller and probably more accurate and probably smarter VY has a good chance too. Except possibly arm strength, I can't think of a single area Vince Young should be weaker or more questionable as a prospect than Steve McNair, and McNair was been a pretty good player in the NFL.

The Texans should think two years. Draft VY and try sitting him in year 1 unless he is just kicking everybody's asses in practice so badly it is impossible to sit him (unlikely, but possible--see Marino and Big Ben). Texans will probably have another good series of picks next year (early 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc). That will give two seasons of excellent picks and free agency to fill out the Oline, #2 WR, TE, 3rd down RB, and revamp the defense all over.

I think the Texans should try to get what they can from Carr now (and sign a cheap vet FA), but if the offers are terrible (not at least a late 1st) have Carr start again this yr while grooming VY, and plan to trade one of them (probably Carr) later. The Chargers are not hurting with Brees and Rivers in this kind of situation, better to have two QBs than zero.

Wow, pretty much in agreement with you Hillboy.

 

I think that the debate would be minor if he was from another school. The debate would come from those who think carr is a bust, other then that i don't think you'd here much arguing.

I never said you were on crack. I said any analayst who said Young was the best college football player ever was on crack. Isn't Ron Danye college football's all time leading rusher? He also played in the big ten so it's not like you can argue he played in weak conference. That's just the beginning of names you will hear that could be in a discussion. Young's body of work really boils down to one and a half seasons of great football. To me, that isn't one of the best college football players of all time.