[Official] Reggie Bush or Someone else -- Vince Young out of running

From the Senior Bowl:

Of the three quarterbacks on this roster (Clemson's Charlie Whitehurst, Vanderbilt's Jay Cutler and Penn State's Michael Robinson), Cutler has the strongest arm and Whitehurst has the quickest delivery. Cutler was a bit erratic, but he showed the ability to fit the ball into tight spots and has impressive mobility. Whitehurst is not nearly as mobile and had trouble with his consistency on the deep ball, but he does have very good touch and timing as a passer. It is only one week, but the experience of working with quarterback guru Norm Chow (Titans' offensive coordinator) certainly can't hurt either of these future NFL quarterbacks.

Two separate NFL scouts said they would draft Cutler ahead of USC's Matt Leinart and Texas' Vince Young.

Are there any scouts who wouldn't take Bush as the top runningback?

 

Couldn't agree more...Having said that, I'd love to have Vince Young...Very rarely does someone (QB) step out of college and is a stud their rookie year...Typically, they need grooming to learn the system, mechanics, etc...

 

I think the real question is if there are any teams that would actually draft Cutler ahead of Leinart or Young.

 

I guarantee you there are a few scouts who would put DeAngelo Williams as the #1 running back. This is how scouts who are going nowhere make a name for themselves. Make an out-of-the-box pick - someone's will be right, and that guy gains credibility the next time for whatever reason.

It happens every year with every position.

 

This coaching staff was simply awful which is why they are no longer with us and I actually don't hold it against him for tuning them out. You cannot predict that Carr will be an average QB based on what we've seen because he was placed in such a bad situation by this organization that you really can't get a true read on his ability even after 4 years. I saw the same thing happen with Dan Pastorini. He too was stuck on some of the worse offensive teams in history. He took a merciless beating his first four years here (it's a miracle that he can still walk today) and he, too, was talked about in the same way that you guys are now talking about Carr. It's as if Carr bears the stigma of all that's gone wrong with the Texans and that's just not true.

Any QB, even VY, would struggle in the situation Carr was put in: poorly constructed offensive system, inadequate offensive line, no QB coach, 1 true weapon at receiver, no use of the tight end and no offensive playmakers. And yet it's Carr who's being blamed for this team's failures. You have to surround a QB with the tools he needs to succeed before he can actually be successful. Take a look at the support around Carson Palmer or Ben Roethlisberger and you'll see what I mean. Now look at what happened to Joey Harrington in Detroit. Looks similar to what's happened to Carr - same lack of success, same questions about his ability to be a successful pro QB.

Given the circumstances he has operated under, Carr has been about as good as anyone could have expected. He's not above criticism but at least you should be honest about the crappy environment he's been stuck in for 4 years and how that has impacted his development as a pro QB.

 

Here's another take on VY. Let's just say that the Texans take VY. Scouts that have studied him say that he is so different from any other QB prospect that the normal rules as to how to develop him do not apply. Normally, you'd take him and have him study your current offensive system for 1 or 2 years (ala Carson Palmer) and then step in. But Vince really doesn't fit a traditional offensive system such as what the Texans ran (or tried to run). He'd need an offense designed specifically for his athletic abilities in order to properly develop at the NFL level. Such an offense is not one in which David Carr would be successful so you would have to make a decision to commit to one or the other. Now this is where it starts to get "sticky".

If you are going to commit to Vince, then Carr has to go. Other teams will know this and you'll face a diminished market value for him because the other teams know you have to move him so they will try to lowball the Texans with any offers for him. The easiest thing to do is to not pay him the $8 million and let him walk but then you get nothing for him, a former no. 1 draft pick. That's a bad business decision - one that could very well come back to haunt this franchise in the years to come. You then will wind up starting a rookie QB in an offense that is not conductive to his ability. And you end up probably rushing Vince into the fray where all of his "warts" will be on display with a team that still has numerous holes to fill on the offensive side of the ball.

If you try to keep Carr + Young then you face some daunting questions: Do you try to develop VY in a more traditional offense or do you in essence have two different offensive systems? And what about personnel? Will an offense designed around Vince Young need the same type of personnel that one designed for David Carr? Do the Texans currently have the necessary offensive personnel in place and if not, exactly how long will it take to assemble them? And, while all of this is going on, what about their win-loss record? Just how much losing are you as fans prepared to accept while this transformation is in progress? A year? 2 years?

As you can see, this is no slam dunk for the Texans. Anyway you look at it, they are in a tough spot. I only hope that whatever decision they make, it eventually works out because if they make the wrong decision, it will set this franchise back years.

 

There have already been multiple talking heads who have said that they'd take Lendale White over Bush.

As somebody said - when you're in the business of giving soundbites and quotes - it often makes sense to go against the tide.

 

Good points, and I think we'd all agree that he's been stuck in crappy environment as you said.

But I also think that Carr was as big as a problem as anything else. It's pretty easy to blame the OL because we all knew there was a problem, but Carr didn't do anything to actually help himself either. Even when Carr did have time in the pocket, he still wasn't making all that great of decisions.

The problem with your example of Pastorini is that he never became the QB people thought he would be, the same goes for Ramsey. Sometimes these QBs lose so much confidence or they are so "traumatized" that they never develop even wtih help around. That's my main concern with Carr and if we are able to get a player of VY's magnitude, I would take him.

 

there's no option of signing a veteran QB to step in a year while Vince sits and learns the system? Why is it that if Vince stays and Carr goes, that Vince has to start from day 1?

If anything, I would love to get a Jon Kitna type for a year and then bring Vince in year 2 (a la Carson Palmer).

 

Who says you need a completely different system with VY than a mostly conventional system. Did you need one with Cunningham? Culpepper? McNabb? McNair? Steve Young? It is the combination of leadership, competitiveness, size, arm and wheel's that make VY so intruiging. If David Carr had more composure and better wheels (perhaps what VY is) would the offense have to be so different to use him properly? Basically with most of these guys (Cunningham, Culpepper, McNabb, McNair, Steve Young) what the athleticism buys you is the chance to improvise and make positive plays every once in a while even when the defense did everything right. But it doesn't mean your base offense has to be radically different.

Heck Minnesotta pretty seamlessly went from an older Cunningham to a statuesk Brad Johnson to the extremely athletic Culpepper. Further Culpepper, McNair and McNabb were having a major impact by their 2nd year--none of which had close to the level of complex defenses and quality of athletes VY faced, particularly in the case of McNair (Alcorn State) and Culpepper (CFU). Expecting VY to radically change the Texans in year 1 is unfair, not unheard of (Marino, Rothlesburger), but not realistic. But selecting VY this year and working on addressing the defense, oline and a few more complimentary skill players the next 2 drafts and free agency puts the Texans ready to really compete for something big in 07.

But what about the very realistic possibility Carr isn't going to be an upper tier QB. You have just missed out on two poential franchise QBs and don't know when you get your next chance (see last year's draft). Further, you have just extended a long contract with a ton of money. Better now to get what you can and move in a different direction. I think there is every bit as much risk in keeping Carr and his long term contract than drafting VY and getting little for Carr. But I think the upside with VY over Carr is ridiculasly higher. Given the Texans record and number of problems it is not like they are in a position for their #1 motivation to be risk aversion.

 

Where? I haven't heard any. Also, aren't indications that New Orleans is taking Leinart over Young?

EDIT: You are right, I did some web surfing and found an analyst who though White would be better than Bush. But most sites have Bush #1, Leinart #2 and Young #3.

 

That may very well be the case with Carr. Pastorini never developed to his potential because of the terrible beating he took in those early years. That plus the fact that he was stuck in an organization that was completely inept until Bum Phillips came along and created the Luv Ya Blue Oilers. Now, hopefully lessions have been learned in Houston football circles(although you certainly can't say that given the past 4 years) and if they do take VY, this will be one mistake that won't get repeated. The bigger problem with VY is going to be what offensive system they build for him and what they ultimately end up doing with Carr.

 

You could do that yes but these guys play QB entirely different from the way that VY does so you'd have to decide what offensive system you want to use for both QBs. From what I've seen, VY is not a traditional drop-back QB like say a Kitna was so if you are running that offensive system, you aren't taking advantage of his full potential. I suppose that you could run a hybrid system that combined the best elements of both styles but there's no guarantee that doing so won't ultimately end up harming Vince more than helping him.

Case in point: The Steelers with Cordell Stewart running that "slash" offense. Sure it was exciting to watch but in the end look at what happened to Cordell when he was asked to be the everyday QB in a more traditional offense (yeah, exactly WHERE is Cordell now anyway?). I'm certain that you and all the other VY fans certainly don't want to see the same thing happen here with Vince. I do believe one thing however: It's that if anyone is capable of figuring this out it will be Kubiak.

 

I agree with you. But here's probably what's gonna happen if we draft Vince and sign a veteran QB for a year. When Vince was a redshirt Freshman, he had to split time with Chance Mock. So what Mack and Greg Davis did was they implemented 2 systems/playbooks to attribute to each QB.

When Chance is in, there's more of a pocket passer's playbook. When Vince was in, there were QB draws and options in the playbook.

I think what's ultimately gonna happen though is that if Vince is drafted, we're gonna go look for a QB that is comparable to Vince in how he plays. That way, both QBs can then run the system in games as well as practice. Somebody in the Garrad mold in JAC.

 

They made the super bowl didn't they?

 

Yeah but look at what happened to Cordell's development. Is that what you want to see happen to Vince: Have him become a flash in the pan like Cordell? Would that make you and all the other VY fans feel like he reached his full potential?

 

I was listening to a recorded tape on one of the local stations and Kubiak seemed to speak highly of Carr. He mentioned that he will be much improved with the right pieces around him.

Whether that means he'll pick Bush as one of those pieces remains to be seen.

 

Whether its Bush or not, doesn't sound like they will be drafting a quarterback.

 

I don't remember what system Cunningham played in college but I have previously posted that I believe that his development was severely r****ded because of his going to a team coached by that moron Buddy Ryan. By the time he made it to Minnesota, his athletic skills had diminished to the point where he was mostly a drop-back passer so the transition to Brad Johnson wasn't all that dramatic. McNair played in the Run-and-Shoot at Alcorn State and the Titans were smart enough not to rush him into the fray but instead let him sit and learn to play in a more conventional offense where he has definitely excelled. Culpepper played in a pro-style offense at Central Florida so he was basically ready to play in the pros. Having Randy Moss to throw to didn't hurt him at all either. At Syracuse, McNabb played an option offense but again, he went into a system that allowed him to develop into a top-tier QB in a more traditional offense. That, I believe, will be the key for Vince. Since he has played in a non-traditional offense, in order for him to develop into a top-tier NFL QB, he will need to be in a system that was designed to allow him to exploit his athletic talents to the fullest. The offense that the Texans have been running (or trying to run) is not that type of system. Fortunately, with the removal of the Capers regime, that offense will disappear under Kubiak. If he can resurrect a Jake Plummer, just think what he can do with a Vince Young. The real issue if they do draft Vince will be what to do with David Carr. Keeping him around could turn out to be really messy. They would end up with the mother of all QB controversies and I just don't think that would be fair to Carr after all the he's been through here.

A truly excellent point. We are both in agreement that this team has got to be remade in order for them to contend. Getting Young allows them to do just that: Create an offense around a player that other teams don't have and one who can have a dramatic impact on a game. Carr has given them mixed signals as to what he can do given the circumstances he's found himself stuck in. No one really knows how good he is or can be because he was not given a fair opportunity to succeed. He may well be damaged goods and needs a change of scenery so to speak. I remember hearing John McClain saying that for Carr to succeed, he would need to make football the no. 1 priority in his life - that he has to study and work much harder. Now, that would be a given under Kubiak from what I've heard so it's really not a major issue. However, I now understand your main point: That the Texans are faced with an historic opportunity to dramatically remake this franchise. If you look at things in this light, then the drafting of Vince Young would be the right move to make. Passing up a talent like Reggie Bush would be tough to do but Young could make them into something special given the right set of circumstances. I just hope that Kubiak can live up to his reputation or in 3-4 years we'll all be back here lamenting what went wrong with the Texans...again.

 

As some have said, the Texans have a wonderfully difficult decision, a win-win situation. But after reading much of the discussion, it is not that simple. It is difficult to discount possibly the greatest performance ever by a college player. But, on the other hand, the best running back to come out of college in years is not to be discounted either. I am glad I am not choosing. The real keys are how good is David Carr and how quickly can both the offensive and defensive lines be rebuilt.

It worries me that some say VY doesn't have a NFL arm, and it also concerns me that some question RB physical durability in the Big Leagues. I will tell you this, if VY goes somewhere else and wins several superbowls, the Texans will never hear the end of it. Especially if Bush gets injured early in his career. But, the reverse is also true.