[Official] Reggie Bush or Someone else -- Vince Young out of running

Randall Cunningham was a good NFL QB, but if that's all VY is going to be I would prefer the Texans draft Reggie Bush.

 

how about the1991 version??

threw for around 3500 yards..30 TD's/15 ints...ran for 942 yards and 5 more TD's.

yeah..that would be just awful.

everytime someone brings up the, "he's another randall cunningham" argument, i wonder if they remember how good randall really was in his prime...and how well he transitioned to being a drop back passer when his legs got older..particularly with the Vikings.


i believe VY will be a better all around QB than randall.

 

From HickokSports.com:

From Wikipedia:

Um, if that's Vince's fate, okay then.

 

So you're saying you would rather risk passing on 2 of the better players to ever come out of the draft all for David Carr? And if he doesn't work out, you'd replace him w/ Quinn? Or draft AP? Both players that aren't even close to VY/Bush status.

 

Re-watched the Rose Bowl again (4th or 5th time). Observations mostly from the Rose Bowl but also from their other games.

Bush is phenomenal in open space. Tremendous 10 yard burst, terrific moves in the open field, and seemed to read blocks well (open field for sure). I don't remember many if any RBs more impressive in these respects. My major concern is when he does get contact, he usually goes down. He doesn't come close to finishing runs say other 210lb type compact RBs like Emmitt Smith or Walter Payton, nor breaking a lot of tackles. Throwing your shoulder on an offbalance defensive back does not make you finish plays like Payton. Thomas Jones, Barber, those guys also finish plays a lot harder right now than Bush does in a similar frame. I think it was LenDale far superior yards after contact (LenDale usually gets at least 3 yards after that contact) is why LenDale was used as much as he was.

Overall Bush should be at minimum a good pro player. I think the upside is along the lines of a Faulk--though Faulk is much more polished in route running (Bush's receptions are more from screens, not crisp routes) and between the tackles than Bush is anywhere near at this point. Faulk is a much fairer comparison to a stronger and more compact guy like Emmitt, Payton or B. Sanders. While right now I don't think he has the running instincts between the tackles like Faulk or say Curtis Martin or say Portis--guys more like him than Emmitt/Payton/LT/The Edge type workhorses, but that is not to say he won't develop it. If he does develop this and remains durable as a workhorse (a question he just can't answer untill he is a pro), he certainly has the talent to be among the best backs in the league if not the best. Overall a top 3 pick on Bush seems totally reasonable, but he is a long way from a polished, workhorse, NFL back. Remember Tiki Barber and Thomas Jones took a long time to blossum and adjust their games in the NFL--both guys who carried it a lot more as a single workhorse lead back in college, so expecting a huge imapct by Bush next year on the Texans or anyone else IMO is a stretch.

Leinart was superb in the 2nd half. Excellent leader, poised, can make all the throws and good reads. Decently athletic and shifty in the pocket as well (we just forget because VY was on the other side, but Leinart is a good athlete). Should be a good pro, 2nd or 3rd pick seem quite reasonable.

Vince Young The more you watch that game the more you should be impressed. The more you watch it the more you realize how many key plays he made in the pocket with is arm, progressions, and understanding what was happening on the field, it wasn't just like at the 1st sign of trouble he ducked his head and headed downfield. After all he threw for 270 (on 75% completion %) more yards than he rushed for--it is just a lot easier to remember the runs. UT probably called 50 pass plays, 40 of which VY threw the ball. Of these thrown, none of which what I would call were inaccurate. A few were underthrown somewhat, but were most right on the money. Two throws in each half reflected real poor decisions, the last which was an off balance force to Dave Thomas under pressure on the 2nd to last drive that Ting should have had. VY should have just air mailed that one over their heads and into the sidelines, he would need to learn to throw more away in the pros. Still two bad decisions and very high accuracy among some 50 pass plays with the pressure on the offense to score about every time was very impressive. Leinart was accurate and made the right reads most of the time as well, but VY was even better in both respects believe it or not--VY had fewer arrant passes (ML had some sail) and fewer poor decisions on who to throw to (ML had 3 passes hit two hands of a Longhorn). Given VY threw better than Leinart without a Jarrett to help him (see below), I think this says a lot about VY's throwing and mental capability as a QB.

VY had such command I can see it leading to related concerns--he is so talented some bad habits may need to be broken. He threw accross the field a number of times with loft (mostly highly accurate but a few were a little low), which he better not try in the pros. If he is going to throw those in the pros he better zip them. Still, his field sense about his WRs and whatever defense SC tried was remarkable. Also, while his over the middle intermediate throws had zip and touch and lead his receives nearly perfectly, some of his outs were low. I be interested if it is an arm strength issue, minor (easily correctable) mechnics issue, or if he just planned them low just to error on the safe size (only give his guy the chance to catch it).

LenDale looked excellent. He overpowers most college LBs and pretty much all the DBs. I am not sold he will be an above average pro back yet--running over pro defenders is a different thing, but he was patient, finished runs and has good feet and burst for a guy his size. Definite 1st rounder, but probably mid to late unless he blows up at the combine or SC pro day.

Dwyan Jarrett is probably the most underrated Trojan. If you want a sure fire NFL starter who played at the Rose Bowl, this guy is it. All conference level DBs can't come close to handling him by themselves in college and it will be a very difficult match-up for a pro CB IMO as well. Too big, too fast, too much understanding of his body, too sharp in his routes and too good in the air to not win almost any man on man match-up.

Darnell Bing is a player too. Excellent tackler, nose for the football, smart, and big hitter. Should make an excellent pick for someone if they can get him in the 2nd or 3rd round.

In summary, there is no way I would pass up VY if I had a shot to draft him. This is a great draft, Bush is worthy of a #1 pick, Leinart is worthy of a #1 pick. Contrary to some posters I think you have the best top prospects since the Palmer or Vick draft, quite possibly better. Looks more to me like the drafts when Aikman/B.Sanders or Elway/Dickerson/Warner were the top prospects. Simply remarkable level of talent in the skill players in this draft. It would take an incredible ransom not to take VY or RB #1 if I am the Texans (whomever they choose is better). As far as risk, the Texans had the worst record in the league bar none. Even if you don't think they are worst in talent, they have so far to go to "avoid risk" should not be a major consideration.

But IMO VY is just a different animal as we saw on the field, just too much upside as a potentially dominant pro QB. Also, VY's flaws to me look minor and correctable to go along with his many advantages. He dominanted the college game like few have. When you consider he was only a full time starter and getting the vast majority of the practice reps about the last 16 college games, and look at his development of a passer over the course of his college career, just remarkable. Barring shocking workouts and other individual tests by RB and VY, think if someone passed on VY they would regret it big time.

 

Reggie Mcneal east/west shrine bowl

9-11 for 211 yards and 2 tds- had 4 series and 4 tds
4 carries 32 yards
Team was down 10 with 5 minutes left, he re-enters the game and leads them to victory.
Down 35 -31 with 4 minutes in a live interview he said
"If we get the ball back we will win"

Then he delivers in two plays, both nice throws.

I am sure he was the MVP of the game. I know it was a meaningless game really,but it still gets me excited about his future. It is also sad to see what could have been if he had some talent around him (ala Vince), and had he not been forced to run an option offense. He looks like he may move into the 2nd round after he runs his sub 4.3 40 times. There goes my dream of the texans getting him late in the draft. Maybe the cowboys?

 

Here is a link Mcneal leads West


SAN ANTONIO - Texas A&M's Reggie McNeal hit Oregon State's Mike Hass with a 23-yard touchdown pass with two minutes left and the West made a goal line stand on the final play for 35-31 victory Saturday in the East-West Shrine Game.
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The East, which saw a 10-point lead evaporate in the final five minutes, had a chance to win when Hofstra's Marques Colston caught a desperation pass just short of the end zone with one second left.

Arkansas' De'Arrius Howard, who ran for three touchdowns, was stopped short of the goal line by as swarm of defenders as time expired.

McNeal, who struggled through an inconsistent senior season and missed his last game against Texas because of an ankle injury, played the first two drives and the last two, and was impressive both times.

Howard's third touchdown put the East ahead 31-21 before McNeal rallied the West, hitting Aggies teammate Jason Carter for 66 yards to set up a short touchdown run by New Mexico's DonTrelle Moore.

After the East was forced to punt, McNeal hit Todd Watkins of Brigham Young for 45 yards. Then it was Hass, last season's Biletnikoff Award winner as best receiver, who was wide open in the corner of the end zone for what turned out to be the winning score.

McNeal, who some analysts said was a better quarterback than Texas' Vince Young when the season started, finished an impressive week in front of hundreds of NFL scouts. He was 9-for-11 for 211 yards with two touchdown passes and rushed four times for 32 yards.

The East led 7-0 after the opening drive when Howard rumbled seven yards for his first score. The touchdown was set up by Auburn tight end Cooper Wallace's 66-yard reception in which he hauled in the pass and bounced off Texas Tech safety Dwayne Slay, one of the Big 12's biggest hitters.

The West answered with a 78-yard drive that came mostly on McNeal's legs. He completed only three passes on the drive, but ran four times and scrambled away from two defenders before hitting Oregon tight end Tim Day for a 1-yard TD.

McNeal connected with Hass for 40 yards to set up a touchdown run by Texas Tech's Taurean Henderson that made it 14-7 for the West.

UCLA quarterback Drew Olson made it 21-7 in the second when he capped his first drive with a 20-yard TD pass to Texas tight end David Thomas.

Toledo's Bruce Gradkowski cut the West lead to 21-14 with a 10-yard TD pass to Colston, who tipped the ball to himself over a defender and hung on for a tough catch in the end zone.

Howard's second touchdown tied it 21-21 early in the third and the East took lead with a 47-yard field goal by Ohio State's Josh Huston.

Howard's third TD, an 11-yard run, made it 31-21 in the fourth before McNeal sparked the West rally.

The 81st Shrine Game was moved to San Antonio from San Francisco after years of declining interest in the Bay Area. But Texas hardly seemed any more interested, drawing only 18,533 to the Alamodome, the smallest crowd since 17,000 watched the second game in 1927.

 

I saw VY play as a Junior and as a Senior in HS and as a sip and i have yet to be dissapointed. I want to see him succeed as a pro and hopefully it will be in Houston. I will be happy with either pick. I do not want to trade down. We need a superstar!

 

IC, good for McNeal. Looks like he really improved his draft prospects. Not really relevant to the pick of Bush versus VY, but interesting.

Size and durability have to be his major concerns for a pro team picking him as a QB though. As a Cowboy fan too I wouldn't mind McNeal if they can get with with their 2nd rounder (about 48th overall).

BTW, let us say McNeal runs a 4.3 and Reggie Bush a 4.4, and let's say a pro team wants to use him like a 3rd down back and return guy, what would you say Bush can do than McNeal can't touch athletically?

 

And yet, all they were talking about was whether McNeal should go to the NFL as a QB or a WR. There is absolutely no question who is the better QB. McNeal is a hell of an athlete. He does have a chance to make it in the NFL and make a career as QB, but it will most likely be as a backup. He's probably got a better shot of making a difference as a WR.

 

Just to add VY is a much better QB now than he was when the season started, whether some thought McNeal was better when the season started is not relevant. This was the first full season of all the reps and plays for VY. McNeal if I recall came into this season with 3 years of college experience as the guy.

By the end of this year VY had become pretty much the best college quarterback a lot of observers have seen in a long time, if ever. If McNeal is close, he is a hell of player. Intruiging 2nd round or later prospect, but long shot 1st rounder with his size, positionality, and durability questions.

 

Vince has proven that he has potential. No one questions that. I would be happy if the Texans pick him. I won't expect immediate results, but I really think he'll do well. I have looked at his mechanics, and I have a different opinion. He certainly will be successful. I pick Bush for a different reason. It's nothing against Young.

Perhaps you shouldn't try so hard to impress others.

 

Reggie looked great. He can definitely throw the long ball.

 

Watching some of the college QBs scramble then get dragged down by one defender's hand has made me realize how much more I'm going to miss Vince next year than I've expected. It will be strange to see one defender pull down our QB.

And good luck to Reggie. He's no Vince, but that leaves plenty of room to do well in the NFL.

 

Mcneal is a horrible runner unless he has lots of daylight

 

My point with that being bold is that I was not crazy to say that they were comparable earlier. Mcneal had a bad year because his WRS did not help him and because we tried to turn him into an option Qb, when he is a good drop back passer. He is only a good runner when he takes off when there is nowhere to throw it to.

 

I watched a lot of Bush and a lot of VY. Whether you think I am trying to impress others, or convince others, or whatever, is beside the point.

Yes I am trying to convince others, if I wasn't why bother debating these things at all. I feel pretty solid at this point VY is the choice barring really unexpected combine type findings on both players. I certainly haven't been yet persauded from posters' here, and more importantly, from watching Bush very closely, that him or anyone else has more potential as a football player than Vince Young.

I also am open to the possibility Bush is the best pick based on workouts, but I have yet to here many pro-Bush folks lay out what VY needs to prove in workouts to be selected #1 over him. This is really weird to me, because when they were both on the field it was obvious who was the more special athlete and more dominant football player, wasn't even close.

So where are you coming from swilkens?

 

I am not going to say Bush is horrible without daylight, but certainly he is not that impressive in tight space or after first contact, and Bush's strength is in open field with space to manover. So there strengths sound similar from what you describe.

Anyone else can contrast McNeal and Bush athletically and as potential all purpose threats (if McNeal was moved to WR/3rd down back/return guy). This is not meant as a dig at Bush, honestly I have not seen much of McNeal and many of you have very high regard for him as an athlete?

 

Left field.

 

I'm watching the Rose Bowl on abc right now, and Kelson really was running stride for stride with Bush for a loooonnggg time. Pretty amazing if you think about it. He's so much bigger that you couldn't see Reggie though.