[Official] Reggie Bush or Someone else -- Vince Young out of running

Indeed! Reggie will make people, myself included, quickly forget about Vince Young.

 

I can take VY's highlights and say he is the best prospect ever as well.

I happen to think 95% of the "experts" are using 5% of the information. Everyone can have a consensus about those 5% of plays each player had that they have actually seen--and you take Bush's 5% of best plays (without regard to what his teammates did to open it up) and he does look unbelievable. Same thing (great highlights along with media hype) resulted in the "Heisman landslide"--the perception never matched the reality of the players.

Just look at Ki-Jana Carter (1st in 95, McNair went #3), Tim Couch (99, McNabb #2), and Courtney Brown (00, Jamal Lewis #5). Couch and Carter were pretty much universal #1s and bustola. The Carter and McNair 1995 draft smells a lot like the Bush and VY draft all the way through the fact these "greatest ever" RB prospects played on college offensive juggernuats all the way through the QB prospects' Wonderlics (For the record I don't think Bush will be as bad as Carter, but it does even consensus overall #1 picks fail miserably)

Like I said, I don't care about most of the so called "experts", I need evidence from workouts to rethink my positions on who will be a better pro between VY and R Bush based on watching both players a ton (probably half the whole games either player had the last 2 years), and on watching plays ranging form the great ones to the mundane most people don't see. Right now I'd hedge my bets with VY being an impact NFL player over Carr or Bush, but I have room to change via pro day results.

 

The purpose of the tape wasn't to say he's the best prospect ever it was to dispute the claim that he didn't have great field vision and wasn't a multiple speed cut player.

Ki-Jana wasn't universal. Couch was but he is a QB. In Brown's draft Lewis is the only example to be used and he comes in at 5. MCNair and McNabb both had question marks when they came out. My point is still when have you ever seen a RB (Bush) be ranked ahead of a guy who you view as one of the top prospects ever, a guy in Leinart who is a two time National champion, Heisman winner and prototype dropback passer and another player who is shooting up the boards and being compared to Favre. It doesn't happen, ever. That's how good a prospect Bush is. I understand you may not respect analysts opinions in this case or agree with them but I'm simply pointing out that this is unprescidented.

 

I don't think anyone is going to or looking to make these fans forget about young. What he accomplished will always live in history. The point is that we need to do what's best for the Texans and to me that isn't selecting VY overall.

 

I think Carter was pretty much the consensus #1 pick, a "can't miss prospect". He was the last RB to go overall #1 and there were good QBs prospects--so it is more similar than dissimilar from that perspective. Sure McNair had questions (Wonderlic, small college ball), but the Oilers staff at the time very smartly saw he was the best player on the board based on potential. Different teams have different opinions abotu even the best prospects and different needs, time will tell if they are right.

I have done the analysis (can point you to the thread), and the failure rate for elite can't miss prospects is high for whatever position--QBs, RBs, whatever. Carter and Couch are prime examples, but it also applies to OL, DL, WR, and anywhere else.

I think everyone pencils in Reggie Bush as clear overall #1 favorite because he is by far the most intriuging non-QB prospect and the Texans have a bunch of money committed to David Carr. Had the Lions or Raiders had the #1 pick, lots of guys would be saying Leinart or Young will go #1. There was even speculation the Texans would trade down to a team wanting Leinart, so lets not say Bush is a world away from the other prospects without them even them having their pro days, or considering the contexts or needs of the teams with the top picks.

 

Could you two just get a room?

 

I don't know, Vince has beaten a team with a 34 game winning streak, as well as the last Big 12 champion, and the last two big ten champions.

 

Wow, I am not sure that you watched alot of ND football then, Bush is nothing like the Rocket except maybe in terms of speed. I'll just have to disagree with your assessment as I think Bush has incredible vision and I think he is much closer to Sanders, LT and Faulk in terms of ability. To each his own.

 

The Rocket wasn't just fast, he had great moves and could cut with speed. ND tried to get him all the touches they could in space via downfield routes, screens, returns, etc--lots of ways Carroll used Bush to try to get him in space. The Rocket also was a great college player and would have probably been the overall #1 pick if he didn't run for the dough (highest rookie contract ever in football) the Canadian multi-millionaire offered. Obviously Bush carried much more punch (15 or so lbs) and can run a lot more from the tailback spot, but IMO they have a lot of similarities.

Bush has great vision in the open field, but I haven't seen it in tight space or reading blocks as a pure runner. Sanders, LT and Faulk were workhorses who were fed over and over--short yardade, long yardage, with zero blocking, all situations, and their teams did not have oppertunity to just play to theses guys strengths and cover any weaknesses in their games as SC could with Bush. I am certainly not convinced Bush is the caliber of pure tailback runners as these guys had shown (or Cad Williams)--potentially Bush could be but he doesn't have the resume yet. I can remember less than a handfull of plays Bush ever had a defender or two in his backfield where a great play is to squeeze a few yards out-- and that is the reality of a lot of plays workhorses face. Likewise for the most part when SC was facing a good team in obvious running situations--they differed to LenDale as the tailback, that wouldn't have happened with Sanders, Faulk or LT at the college level. Also, it isn't just a size issue, think about it with Cad Williams (great tailback runner), he was able to be Auburns #1 guy even with a better version of LenDale on the bench or used to block for him (Ronnie Brown). Why? Because Cad was superior in pure instincts for squeezing yards out of bread and butter plays than Brown, and we saw it last year in the pros. The fact LenDale was the primary guy for bread and butter runs when the defense knew they were coming (not just against Texas, most times when SC faced better defenses LenDale got more carried) isn't a positive.

 

Gosh, Desert Scar, I wonder what is up with all these expert scouts thinking Reggie Bush is the highest rated runningback to come out in many years and the clear #1 pick. Apparently they haven't done the requisite player comparos to guys like the Rocket. I bet if they read your posts it would open their eyes about Bush.

 

It's the same expert scouts that had K. Carter one of the highest rated RBs and the clear #1 pick back in 95. It's also the same scouts that had Couch rated higher than McNabb and Akili Smith over Culpepper. I'm sure Bush will be better than Carter but scouts have been wrong almost just as much as they have been right.

 

Carter had a DEVASTATING knee injury, not really fair to label him as a bust based on talent.

 

Sorry dude, I am as big a ND fan as there is and I loved the Rocket, but he is not in the same league as Bush. All your concerns with Bush, those would have been legit with the Rocket. Bush is just a MUCH better player plain and simple.

You also seem to have a specific idea of what a RB should be, I don't, all I care about is production. Is Bush an every down back - who knows - I don't at this point, but he is a devastating weapon. There are plenty of backs that are his exact size and smaller that have had tremendous success in the NFL. USC used him in different ways because he can do so many things, not because he is limited and becasue they had two studs and White is the more traditional style of back. He doesn't have the versatility that Bush has. I think Bush will be a TD machine in the NFL and I think he will make all the other players around him better because he will draw alot of defensive attention. Of course I would love to have a Bo Jackson or a Earl Campbell but there isn't one in this draft. You have said in several posts that VY could revolutionize the QB position, I think RB can do the same thing as an offensive weapon.

 

Yada, yada, yada,....same experts who thought Bush was the best college player and voted for him in the Heisman and proven way wrong...yada, yada, yada.

Exactly, most experts are not really experts at all, and even those who are experts miss. I don't really care what other experts are saying unless they bring up I havn't seen myself in watching a lot of games by both players. Otherwise I defer to what I have seen, not a too bit hacks opinion.

To be fair those are not usually the words I choose and that is an unfair burden (revolutationize the positions). But I coming into the draft I don't see what McNabb or McNair has over VY and they turned out pretty good. I don't discount Bush potentially being the next Marshall Faulk or Barry Sanders, but IMO that is certainly no more likely than VY comparing with those two I just mentioned (actually comparing Bush to Sanders if more like comparing VY to Elway--again, totally unfair for any guy no matter what they have going for them at college).

 

Proven way wrong? Why? Because VY had an awesome game against a horrible defense?

 

NFL scouts vote for the Heisman? That's news to me.

 

Are you going to argue VY was not the best college football player last year? Seriously?

"NFL scouts". Most the self-proclaimed "scouts" you are talking about are media pundits trying to make good media stories or sell their products to every Tom, Dick and Harry interested in their home teams draft--a very similar group to the Heisman voters. The real scouts (those within football organizations) are certainly not going to freely open their mouths about what they think before the draft takes place, and more than likely would give a false trail if they do. Finally, even many of these make draft day mistakes.

My opinion is from watching both players play a ton, and watching whole football games not just market material highlights. I have also heard lots of former NFL's be very positive and very intrigued by Vince Young moving to the NFL, I would take into account their opinion well before most self-proclaimed scouts.

And finally, even Mel Kiper said in January they are all guessing with limited information right now, particularly without the combine results. Since none of the big 3 participated in workouts at the combine, that pushes things until their pro days. So anyone with a completely close mind about who is the best NFL prospect at the top of the draft without having additional workout information is not studious enough to take their opinion seriously about the matter. It is possible I change my view than Bush or Leinart or Vernon Davis is the best offensive prospect in the draft depending on pro day results. But until I have good evidence suggesting the best college football player last year (Vince Young) will not be very effective in the pros and/or that Reggie Bush is an even better pro prospect than he was a college player I would hedge my bets on Vince Young being the best NFLer in this draft.

So please, let’s pick this up after the pro days because there really isn’t much else to say right now and we know where everyone stands. But if someone won’t to make a pot shot out of left field you can be sure I get back to it.

 

lol, i can't believe you guys are still going back and forth about the same stuff

 

Bush won the heisman voting by a landslide. The biggest gap between 1st and 2nd place since OJ simpson. Then the rose bowl. Bush had a great game against a solid Texas defense, Young had a super game against a mediocre defense.

I can't say for sure that Young was or was not the best college football player last year based on 1 games. I'd say its a toss up. How can you say for sure?

 

before that game started, were you telling us that USC had a mediocre defense?