[Official] Reggie Bush or Someone else -- Vince Young out of running

Gallery just doesn't look good though. I understand he can improve but he makes a lot of stupid penalties and was beaten consitantly by quick guys.

Carr doesn't have the ceiling that Young does but I'm confortable with him at QB.

 

Thanks for making it simple. You lost all credibility though when you called Vick a superstar. Of all the QB's you could have named you go with Vick over a guy like Brady? Vick is far from a superstar.

Hassellback/ Alexander went to a superbowl

 

You're right, Gallery really needs to work on his footwork. However, I think that can be taught. I feel that he'd be a very good RT (not a LT) for years to come.

I feel similarly with DD and Morency. I think they will do just fine under Kubiak's offense. I think the Texans are better off getting a pass rusher or an OL with the first pick. However, I'd like to see the Texans picking up VY because I really feel that he's a "once-in-a-lifetime" talent. I don't know if I will ever see someone as talented VY to grace the college football fields.

 

LOL, yes Brady is a superstar, so is Vick simply because he causes defenses so much trouble, and he's a hell of an athlete. How is he not a superstar?? He also puts butts in seats so he's a superstar for the owners too. They also market him accordingly, but you can't deny his talent.

There's a lot of superstars out there, just because I didn't mention one doesn't mean they aren't. Yes Hasselbeck went to a superbowl but that doesn't make him a superstar. It certainly didn't make Trent Dilfer a superstar . Hasselbeck is a good solid quarterback, and that's all I see in Carr. I just don't see him becoming a star QB like Manning, McNair, McNabb, Brady, etc.

 

Yeah, I don't think Gallery can have much success at LT. At RT he can probably play much better (assuming he works hard and stops committing dumb penalties).

I like DD but he's been hurt every season. His lack of breakaway speed hurts us too. There were probably 5 times last year when a RB with good speed would have taken it to the house. Those are my only problems with him (oh and his atrocious blocking). Morency was a wasted pick to me. He showed some promise but for the most part tried to do too much and would lose yds. He's going to end up like Hollings unless we can get someone to take him.

I think Young can be a great player but i don't view him as a "once in a lifetime talent." I don't view Bush that way either. Even after reading through all these posts I personally still haven't seen one on the field reason why I would take VY over Bush if I was GM. That's just my opinion though.

If we get good value I'd entertain a trade too. I want Williams though. Maybe hawk. If you look around the NFL you will see a ton of great OL's who were drafted after the first round. It's just you get scared with Casserly picking

 

I promise you the majority of this board will agree Vick isn't a superstar unless you're playing Madden. Just because he's well marketed doesn't mean he's a superstar. He's definitely portrayed as one but look at his stats. The numbers he puts up aren't impressive at all. How do you have a QB who can't pass and call him a superstar?


I didn't call Hassellback a superstar. You compared Carr to him and i want to draft Bush at RB. So if Bush can be a star and carr can live up to Hassellback form then we have a bright future don't we? I find McNair to be a tad overrated I definitely think he was good but never quite a superstar (I know he won an MVP and almost won a superbowl). That's just me though, I can accept those who think he is. There's an argument to be made.

 

No question he has great individual cuts at speed. But Sanders and Sayers turned inside out whole defenses (reversed field and all). I don't see that in Bush. In that respect I more compare with with Ismail or Peter Warrick, other great single cut North-South open field runners. Visions for blocking and the whole field like Sayers/Sanders, sorry, haven't seen that in Bush.

McNair, McNabb, or a quicker Culpepper with a heart. Take your pick. Remember McNabb was an option QB at Cuse and threw less than VY. Interesting, all 3 guys were tearing up in year 2 in the NFL, and McNair and McNabb were among the best players 3-5 years in (DD's claim for VY). Culpepper would also be if he had the heart, composure and leadership to go along with his physical gifts.

Bush did get 8+ yards per carry, but LenDale got 6+ playing more goalline situations. One commonality is they had terrific holes. I can hardly remember any times they had to beat tacklers behind the LOS. Very rare.

My questions about Bush are not about what he can do in the open space--he will be great in open space in the pros, but what he can do without open space that 95% of pro running plays reflect. That is the bread and butter plays that most all of the hall of fame backs (save maybe Sanders and Sayers) had to excell in to become great players. But like I said, if Bush has a Barry Sanders like work out, I'll overlook his negatives/concerns as a workhorse and full steam ahead with him as the rightfull #1 pick.

It was a wheel route. The same route Bush routinely got wide open all year for SC, but didn't work at all against Texas (they ran it a couple of times, and the one ML actually threw should have been an INT). Bush got his receiving advantages via speed alone--not hands, not route precision, not instincts, not reacting to ball faster than DBs, that isn't going to be enough in the pros as it was much more limited versus Texas than most college teams.

Uhm, no. It was LenDale that flatened Huff. Bush stiff armed a off balanced Texas corner on the way out of bound in the 1st half to gain a few yards, yes. LenDale defintely got Huff on the one everyone talked about, still Huff made a lot of fine tackles on a TE that had 60 LBS on him though and very nearly kept Bush out of the endzone on his TD. Huff showed himself very well despite 1 embarassing play.

Overall Bush rarely had substantial YAC in the Texas game. LenDale and VY on the other hand had a lot, and consistently drove through their last tackler for an extra couple yards.

Agreed.

 

I think that was Byrd. He gave Huff a vicious stiff arm, but Huff still brought him down.

 

McNair only started the last 2 games his 2nd year, playing behind Chris Chandler. He really didn't start tearing it up until the 2001 or 2002 season. That's 6 years after he was drafted.

 

McNair was the regular starter (16 out of 16 games) in 1997 and performed pretty well. You are right that is not his 2nd year, that was his 3rd year. In year 2 he did play in 8 games, starting 4, and played very well.

Culpepper and McNabb were regular starters their 2nd year and played outstanding, high efficiency and accoutning for 4000 total yards plus.

 

Bush truns defenses inside out every time he played (with the exception of Texas. He'd make people look crazy trying ot tackle him. That's why his highlights videos from high scholl and USC are actually hot sellers. That's a rare commodity. I still don't see any Rocket Ismail in Bush. Ismail was just straight up fast. He hit a hole and was gone. You never saw him do a lot of cutting or juking at full speed at ND. Warrick is a ridiculous comparison. He was more of a possesion receiver who had some straight away speed but fizzled because he lacked move. Bush's moves are probably his biggest stronsuit.

I already compared him to a faster Culpepper so we're in agreement here. I think Daunte has a better arm and Vince is faster. So we don't disagree on this. However, Culpepper isn't a once in a lifetime player or a guy who you would take #1. He may be better then Carr has shown but I still wouldn't take Daunte #1 unless it was a super weak draft (like when Alex Smith went 1). I think Bush will be like Faulk, whom I would definitely use a #1 on. I'll give you McNabb but not McNair. It took him longer to become a good QB.

I'm glad you made this point. It illustrates what I've said all along. White was in in goal line situations mostly. Short yardage as well. That's why here's the TD descepency and why Bush rarely played in those situations. He still averaged 9 ypc and did everything on offense. He was able to score all those TD's by breaking big plays. He's a big play guy.

DD gained 1000 yds basically for three straight seasons in a bs offense. What do you think Bush can do with an improved line and better coaching. He's a better player then DD and Kubiak is going to install a system that will work to his strengths. Still, you can't make the assessment Bush can't run inside just because he didn't have to. The answer is that we don't know.


It looked more like a timing play to me. Bush's insticts and his ability to react to the ball in the air are the only things that prevented the ball from being picked off. Watching him play receiver he was normally open so we don't have a great handle on his insticts. I still think he'll turn out ot be a good receiving back in the pros. He was in college.

It may not have been Huff. I was told that by someone because i couldn't remember. If it wasn't I was incorrect. I know he flattened somebody though regardless. I wasn't knocking huff either, I would love to see him in a Texans uni (although i know we have no chance).

My perception of the game was that Texas was willing to let anyone but Bush beat them. USC had a terrible defense to begin with and simply couldn't stop VY. I've said it was one of the best performances ever in a National Championship game. I give the guy all the credit in the world. If we needed a QB I'd be all for VY but IMO we don't.

Pro day should definitely help us evaluate further on these guys. I look forward to seeing Bush and VY and what they can do. I'm also going to watch the TE's that could go in the second and Cutler simply because I want to see what all the hype is about. I don't think he's as good as he's being billed.

 

Are you saying that you wouldn't Culpepper over Carr had they been in the same draft?

 

In hinsight I certainly would have but that's a question I really can't answer. I don't know how Daunte graded out (he went behind a bunch of QB's who ended up being crappy) so my guess is that his workouts couldn't have been that impressive. Carr went #1 and had amazing workouts. Who's the better player, Culpepper of course.

Let's not forget though that Daunte has been provided with a ton of weapons throughout his career and the first time they took those away he was arguably the worst QB in the NFL (before his knee blew out). Brad Johnson promptly stepped in and almost led the team to the playoffs.

Still, i believe when Culpepper is healthy he's better then Carr. Like i've said all along though, let's give Carr some weapons and see what he can do. So far all he's had is AJ and DD (both of whom have been hurt) and the worst OL in the league (and maybe ever).

 

Actually the main difference between the two IMO is composure, heart and leadership (intangibles). VY has shown more clutchness on the field as what a 21 year with 1 year full time starting in college than Daunte has shown in 7 years in the pros.

It isn't a matter of football talent, Culpepper has all the size, arm strength, and athleticism you want, and even a good grasp of what is happening on a football field. If Culpepper had the intangibles as a leader he certainly would be a #1 caliber prospect and one of the best players in the league (another guy like this was Jeff George). That is the difference between McNabb, McNair and (what I think )VY will be from DC in my opinion. Actually McNair is the closest IMO to VY in athletic gifts and leadership qualities, McNabb has started to show some cracks as a competitor the last couple of years (totally losing his mind it in the 4th quarter of the superbowl, letting TO get to him and not stabilizing his team last year).

 

VY did that in college though. He will have to put up some pretty good numbers and become a Pro Bowler to accomplish what Daunte has so far. Given that, I definitely think he's a better leader then Culpepper.

McNabb showed some cracks but he's a better player (and leader IMO) then McNair. He took a ton of crap from the fans when he was drafted and took all of TO's crap until he couldn't take it anymore. I don't know what happened in the Superbowl. He got sick, ran out of gas, nerves, ect. McNair is one of the toughest guys around and a good player. I just don't put him on McNabb's level. One can easily say McNair has been to a superbowl and won an MVP award. It's definitely debatable. I think VY will be the type of player McNair is , Culpepper, maybe McNabb ect.. I just think Bush will be better suited for us (and end up a better player.

It's just differing opinions.

 

Both guys were noted for speed but even more burst, quickness and open field moves. They were great receivers, but also were all around players and spectacular in the open field, that is why they were high on the Heisman voting ("highlight" potential and all-around game). I have no idea where you go the idea Warrick was noted as a possession receiver at Florida State. Warrick went #4 overall because they thought every time he would touch the ball (via downfield route, screen or kick return) he would give you a chance at the end zone. I am pretty sure both Warrick and Ismail have more returns for TDs than Bush.

But neither the above two player, nor Reggie Bush IMO, do what Sanders or Sayers did. Those guys could seemingly set up the whole defense one way, sense when reverse field, and actually make it work fairly consistently. The next guy I remember like this is Mike Vick. While a fast Texas defense largely controlled Bush, an every bit as fast FSU defense just couldn't stay with Vick. I see Bush as more of a great 1 cut guy than someone who can befuddle a pro defense and require whole defensive adjustments like one Sayers, Sanders, Vick, etc.

Additionally, Cal has shut him down 3 times and Bush was effective but not the key player versus a fast OU defense. Of the best and fastest defenses Bush has faced (ND is not a fast defense, Ohio State exposed them from a speed and quickness perspective totally), the only one he really put his stamp on was Vtech 2 years ago, and if I recall it was in the receiving game when Vtech played him with an LB in coverage while blitzing. When SC has played better and faster defenses (UT, Cal, VT, OU) they have more turned to LenDale on the ground, Bush has been limited to 2 big rushes (around the corner play on UT, 1 long rush versus OU).

As spectacular as Bush is in the open field, I havn't seen near enough to conclude he is a great pure runner as a halfback on bread and butter players (Faulk or LT level, let alone Barry Sanders). Based on Carroll's more measured use of him in running plays versus better opponents, I might not be the only one. At SC it really was a perfect situation, the best Oline in the game the last 2 years, a great passing offense to keep opponents off balance, and Thunder to play short yardage and further wear down a team strait up the gut. But if he can go a legit 4.3 weighing in closer to 210lbs (good skills drills or lower body strength tests a bonus), that would make me feel better about overlooking my concerns towards him as an overall #1.

But we will see, the arguments are out, might as well revisit the debate in a couple years. Well, at least until the pro days until we have more information other than spin and bs

 

Everyone loves to throw this term around on this board. Mostly about Steve Francis when they whine about bringing him back and ressurecting the "good ole days" -whatever those were.

We know Vince is no Tin Man. His heart or clutchness isn't what made him declare for the draft. It was his skills.

 

Warrick had college speed. Running a straight route he was very fast but he lacked quickness. In the NFL they immediately realized he was a possession receiver.Ismail went to Canada. I doubt he would have even been a first round pick.

It's a lot easier to contain an RB then it is a QB. That's just the way it is. When the field is open QBs can take lanes and take off. They have the ability to either pass or throw and if they can scramble they can create as much as 10 seconds back there. A RB gets the ball and he has to make a decision. He doesn't have the luxury of those options. I don't know if Bush will ever live up to Sanders or Sayers (that's top all time here) I'm just comparing his moves to theirs. I'll definitely need to see something on the field in the NFL before i annoit anyone the next Barry sanders.

Plenty of teams shut down VY too. This is a moot point. Nobody is going to be perfect in every game. VY got shut down by a terrible A@M defense. That doesn't take away from the player he is.

The best thing to do is to at least wait until these guys have their pro days. Right now we are recycling the same things because all we have to go on is our opinions.

 

What I was saying is heart, focus, competitiveness, compusure or respect from teammates--some typical non-athletic intangable not usually testable in one on one drills and that really comes into play in teams sports, largely separates say a McNair or McNabb from a Culpepper or Jeff George. I think there is good evidence Young has these positive intangables as well. I guess to simplify, it is just leadership.

Actually I think it was the other way for PW. Warrick was incredibly quick, but it turned out his top end speed wasn't that great. Injury free he probably would have been a decent #2 WR, but NFL guys could more than keep up with him so he never has going to be a match up killer. Still he went #4, ahead of Jammal Lewis, he was a tremendously highly regarded prospect and the Bengals thought he could turn any play (including short receptions and returns) into a touchdown and open up the game for everyone else--a lot what people are expecting of Bush. This is one reason I want to see Bush's 40. Warrrick tested at 5'11 195 (not far from Bush) and like high 4.4s. Is Bush a legit (controlled setting) 4.3 or below, or is he in the 4.4s. It actually makes a big difference to me given my other concerns, I want to know Bush can run away from your average NFL DB, not merely have excellent speed. Mark Clayton was another example (low 4.4 guy). Superquick, seemed to make a lot of opponents look like fools in college, but don't think he will ever be an impact pro. But you run a 4.3--Santana Moss or Lee Evans, even if you are small (not that Bush is for an all purpose player) you cause trouble if you have other decent skills with it.

As for Ismail, accoring to the report below the Cowboys manovered to take him overall #1 but they could get a contract (though it was a weak draft, Russell Maryland became the overall #1). http://www.collegefootballnews.com/Almanac/Draft/Shouldve_1991.htm Regardless of whether he would have been overall #1, he was considered a tremenous prospect combining explosive speed, quickness and instincts and no doubt would have been top 5 without the contract issues, no doubt at all (he got about 20 mil from Canada--unheard of). Now I don't know, but I would have be shocked if Ismail wasn't a legit 4.3 guy along with peerless change of direction at speed (like Bush), he was a match problem causing NFL WR when he was healthy.

Yep, I'm with you there.

 

DS,

The Rocket had no where near the change of direction ability of Bush, and I am a HUGE ND fan. They are not similar players at all. And this quote leads me to believe that you have only see Bush play in the Rose Bowl:

But neither the above two player, nor Reggie Bush IMO, do what Sanders or Sayers did. Those guys could seemingly set up the whole defense one way, sense when reverse field, and actually make it work fairly consistently. The next guy I remember like this is Mike Vick. While a fast Texas defense largely controlled Bush, an every bit as fast FSU defense just couldn't stay with Vick. I see Bush as more of a great 1 cut guy than someone who can befuddle a pro defense and require whole defensive adjustments like one Sayers, Sanders, Vick, etc.

If you are calling Bush a one cut guy than you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. For the record I could care less what the Texans do as long as the team is improved whether it be to trade down, draft Bush, draft VY - I don't care but you make the goofiest observations regarding Bush of anyone I have seen. You are certainly entitiled to your opinion, but the more I read your posts the more I am convinced you have only seen Bush play in the RBowl.