[Official] Reggie Bush or Someone else -- Vince Young out of running

Desert Scar - your posts on this matter reflect my thoughts and positions exactly. Now, I wish you'd stop because the Texans are going to take Bush. I'm trying to drink the cool aid over here . . .

 

1 HOU *Reggie Bush, RB, USC 6'0 200
Though there may be a question whether Reggie Bush lacks the ability to gain yards after contact from the running back position at the NFL level, there is little doubt this Heisman Trophy winner possesses the speed, explosiveness and elusive moves to make defenders weary. He is a multi-dimensional player that excels in both open areas and tight spaces. If he were given the opportunity to showcase his versatility on an open-minded offense, he would help elevate any offense to another level. Personally I feel the Texans should trade the pick to gain more valuable picks, but the consensus is Bush will go #1, so I will leave him there for accuracy reasons.

2 NO D'Brickashaw Ferguson, OT, Virginia 6'5 295
With the recent acquisition of QB Drew Brees, the departure of All-Pro center LeCharles Bentley through free agency, and with their starting LT up in age the selection of D'Brickashaw may not be the most glamorous pick, but very well could solidify the LT position for years to come for the Saints. Ferguson draws comparisons to current perennial NFL All-Pro's such as Walter Jones and others. However, look for the Saints to trade out of this selection in need of more picks in this years draft.

3 TEN Matt Leinart, QB, USC 6'5 225 It could be a union with the Titans between former USC offensive coordinator and his star pupil Matt Leinart. Together at USC they terrorized collegiate defenses, the question would be could that dominance continue at the next level together? With the Titans starting QB Steve McNair aging and long in the tooth this would give the team a former Heisman Trophy winner behind center who would provide stability and a winning background.

4 NYJ Jay Cutler, QB, Vanderbilt 6'4 228
With the uncertainty of QB Chad Pennington's health, the Jets will eagerly grab Jay Cutler if the former Vanderbilt standout is still available. He is a player that would bring stability and a winning mentality to the teams uncertain quarterback position. Even with team needs at both RB and OL, to overlook Cutler, whom I consider the best overall player in the draft, could be damaging to the franchise's future. Once the combine and post game bowls are concluded there very well could be talk that this should be the first QB taken off the board! Jay Cutler may or may not be a household name to most of the public at this point before draft day. The drafting and emergence of Cutler will be just what the draft doctor ordered.

I feel Jay Cutler is the most underrated and undervalued player in this entire draft. To me he has a greater upside than any other quarterback in this draft and clearly warrants this draft position. He shows all the tools you want from a franchise quarterback. He has the arm strength and touch to place balls anywhere along the field, the mobility to extend passing plays for his receivers and the athletic ability to become a dangerous open field runner. He is equally effective throwing the ball inside or outside of the pocket and has the pocket presence and competitive nature only the exceptionally talented possess. That is Jay Cutler. If the Jets were to draft this player, it would be a major step toward the team's future success. I honestly feel he is the best QB in the draft, I know this selection will raise some eyebrows but only time will tell!

5 GB *Mario Williams, DE, NC St. 6'7 285
There are several options and needs for the Packers here but the best value here would be in the selection of Mario Williams. Williams has the unique combination of size-speed-and wing span that few posses. He draws comparisons to Julius Peppers in both stature and skill. Mario would provide immediate impact and needed big play ability to a defense that lacks in both areas. Williams selection would go a long way to quickly building the Pack's defense to a playoff caliber.

6 SF Michael Huff, CB/S, Texas 6'0 204
Here is a player that comes to the 49ers who can come in and instantly make an impact to a defensive backfield in need of his skills. He is a player that likes to initiate contact with opponents, and has the closing speed and aggressive play that can make him an instant success. I feel his skills translate best to the safety position, and a reason I feel this selection may be a reach at this point of the draft. The consensus is that he merits a top 10 selection, so I matched him with a team in need of his skills.

7 OAK Vince Young, QB, Texas 6'5 235
With QB Kerry Collins now departed via the waiver wire, with Young still available at this point on the draft board, Raider owner and renegade Al Davis will eagerly grab the former Longhorn standout here. He is a player that would bring stability and a winning mentality to the teams uncertain quarterback position. Young would not only provide talent and leadership to the offense but give the franchise a future to look forward to. Young's performance in the2006 Rose Bowl could be a preview of things to come. The hiring of long time Raider legend and now head coach Art Shell should help bring along Young in his maturation as a talented but inexperienced QB.

 

Luckyazn, I noticed the mock draft you have has an interesting scouting report on Reggie Bush.


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This is a player at the running back position that for all his accolades that he has received in college, I feel he may be more athlete than football player

In that he is an athlete without a legitimate position for the next level, he does not posses the overall body strength to carry the ball on a consistent basis as a running back, and for the wide receiver position he does not have the instincts to be an every down player there

I feel his future employment lies on special teams, as a dynamic punt & kick off returner, in the college game he can get by on his speed hitting the corner as a running back, something I think he tries to do to far too often to the outside, also in the collegiate game there is more space for him to work with mainly due to the majority of inferior athlete he competes against in college, his opponents lack the speed and quickness to compete competitively, that will change in the NFL where the speed and level of athlete is comparable to his own and makes space more scarce for him, the reason his skills will not translate smoothly over to the NFL is that his game is predicated on him playing in space, and with NFL athletes faster, and quicker they close space down much faster

Therefore he would have to rely on breaking tackles in the NFL, which is not going to happen due to his lack of overall strength on his part, the one thing that could save him in the NFL would be a creative offensive minded coach that knew how to utilize his unique and rare athletic gifts, he somewhat reminds me of former NFL running back "Eric Metcalf" a great athlete that was never truly used to his full potential, mainly due to never finding a true position, his lack of strength and inability to break tackles consistently also did nothing to further his career numbers

http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/profile_display.cfm?Prospect_ID=236

The Eric Metcalf comparisons scare the hell out of me, but the Barry Sanders one's excite the hell out of me. Either way, if Bush turns into Eric Metcalf, Casserly will get the axe next season.

 

Wait a sec....I thought you believed that the first test score was in error.

Just teasing

 

Really? Please provide anything that suggests we are the same person (any sort of proof, evidence, hell anything) then. Since I know you can't, you need to stop talking trash about that. Email Clutch and ask him or be quiet. It's that simple.

 

TRS, I agree much in that report. However the Eric Metcalf is quite the low ball comparison (another one I thought of was Leeland McLeroy--who I am sure a lot of the anti-Vince folks thought he would tear it up at the next level). I will say he almost surely will be better than Metcalf, but equally sure he is no Barry Sanders. My guess is more like a Bryan Westbrook/Tiki Barber type player.

What is weird is this scout in one spot says: "excels in both open areas and tight spaces" but in his report says "in the NFL where the speed and level of athlete is comparable to his own and makes space more scarce for him, the reason his skills will not translate smoothly over to the NFL is that his game is predicated on him playing in space, and with NFL athletes faster, and quicker they close space down much faster" Therefore he would have to rely on breaking tackles in the NFL, which is not going to happen due to his lack of overall strength on his part . I agree with the latter, Bush isn't much of a tackle breaker and hasn't been that impressive in tight space. For him to be an elite pro RB, he is going to have to get a ton better in these regards.

Well I will say VY would probably feel slighted at being #7 my point was anyone talking sh** because he only goes in the 1st 4 or 1st 7 picks of the 1st round of an NFL draft is a freaken idiot, because that is rare company and meant someone really liked him as a prospect.

I have to admit if I was a pure Texans fan I would be depressed. But when I left Houston the Texans were non-existant. I'll route for the Texans (and most all Texas teams but the SAS), but it isn't the connection of the old Oilers when they were in their home and I watched them in the Dome.

What is really ironic I think VY probably goes to the Titans--the last team I want him to go to. Despite having Butt Adams as an owner, they have a terrific front office and staff. I don't see the Texans passing them anytime soon the way the free agency (Titans already are making strong moves) and draft is shaping up. That would make me double depressed if I lived in Houston now. Sorry guys

 

Jeff Fisher and Floyd Reese are WAY smarter than the Texans staff.

They will not let Young slide by.......A chance to keep McNair on, and have him tutor Young.

Perfect fit for Vince, and we will all get to see Vince kick the Texans ass 2 times every year......for the next 15 or so.....

What could be better?"



DD

 

Is our sig bet still a go?

 

Yes, of course...even though it is looking more than likely I will lose...a bet is a bet....

Start thinking of what you want in there for 30 days following the draft.

DD

 

I don't see that happening.

It's ok if you just want to admit that you're a VOF and that you do not have faith in the Texans. I've seen others say similar things. It just doesn't make the debate as much fun, when you don't add substance to your statements.

Perhaps you could elaborate on exactly how VY is going to beat us everytime he plays us.

 

Anything but that. Please god, anything but that.

 

We definitely disagree about his field vision. Look at the spin moves and cuts he makes. Bush has amazing field vision. Whether he has the field vision of a Sanders or Sayers or that second gear at the NFL level still remains to be seen. Nothing is for sure, I know that. Watching Reggie's entire body of work in college suggests superstar to me (as it did to everyone else too, thus all the hype). His work ethic is also unparalleled. The fact that he's been working with LT for two years really tells me something about the kid. It's like the receivers who go to work out with Rice. Normally, only the top notch guys put in that type of work. While everyone has their opinion LT has already endorsed him as one of the best backs he's seen. I understand there may be a bias there because they are close but LT has always been one to speak his mind (on the Brees/Rivers situation) and i don't think he'd endorse Reggie that strongly if he didn't believe it. In terms of the Young Elway/Montana comparisons i have to disagree. Young doesn't play like those guys. His game is nothing like Montana or Elway. With the exception of lateral movemet (In Elways case and Vince is obviously a better runner) I don't see any comparisons. They are all winners but that can be said for Bush and a lot of players. I don't have qa problem with someone comparing Vince to a star player but it's really hard to find a guy who Vince compares too. That can be a good or bad thing, we don't really know yet. I said that when this thread first started that i can't think of an athlete past or present that compares closely to VY. The closest I came up with was Culpepper.

I still believe that people are underestimating Reggie's quickness. He hits holes so fast that normally he doesn't get hit until the second wave of defenders (as evident by his 9 ypc average) or when he bounces outside. I've watched Reggie a ton and I think it's unfair to say someone can't do something when they were never tested in that area. I think people are making assumptions and I'd rather see what he can do. When I see 9 ypc I don't care where you were running that's amazing.

Texas keyed on Bush, there was no question. In the NFL, most teams have other weapons (in our case AJ) who take that away. Bush did make a play on the final drive. If you're revisiting the 4th and 2 again to me that doesn't matter. Like i said, White is a first round pick and a power back. If you have a better short yardage option you use it. It's not like they brought in some scrub, this guy could go top 10 as well.

That play with Kelson can't be debated IMO. We don't know what type of route Bush was running. If it was a fade pass (which it appeared to be to me) then it makes it much easier for Kelson to cover because Bush wasn't running fulll speed. Plus, Kelson had help over the top. Bush may have recognized that and slowed down to find an open space. We simply don't know.

Bush is a good blocker. It's one of his strengths. We're not asking him to be Orlando Pace or even Lorenzo Neal out there but he's good at picking up the blitz. It's something that's natural, either you have it or you don't. No matter how much they have tried to teach DD he can't pick up a blitz to save his life.

I think Bush also showed his strength when he flattened Huff? with a stiff arm. Huff is a top 10 pick and Bush threw him to the ground like a rag doll. I think people underestimate Reggie's strength. I understand if you're not sold on him and are concerned about spending 50 mil on a guy who you don't have complete confidence in. That's how i feel with Young (plus I feel Carr can still be a good QB). I think Young has more questions surrounding him then Reggie. They both have amazing upside. To me, it's more likely that Vince doesn't pan out (QB is a hard position to gauge) then Reggie. That's not a knock on Vince because i think he will be good and hope everything works out for him. I just simply don't want the Texans to use the #1 pick on him. That being said, if he was to freefall to the teens and someone offered him to us for our #1 next year and another pick (4th or so) I'd take him. So it's not that i don't feel he's talented, I just think Bush is a better fit.

I don't understand SD or NO either. Shoulder surgery is a big red flag (look at Pennington), However, if Brees checks out (which I'm sure he did) and they can get Williams, Brick and another pick, they made the right move. Brees has already proven himself (although he did have LT, Gates and McCardell). That's arguably the two best players at RB and TE. Makes life a lot easier. I wouldn't mind having Williams either if we got enough value. i think he'll be like Freeney and Peppers.

Skip this part because it was directed at lucky. Although I'm sure some dork like kingcheetah will accuse me of being him as well at some point .

My gut is he goes to Tenn or Oakland. Before the Brees deal i had him penciled in at 3 but now i think Tenn goes with Leinart because i doubt McNair has that much influence and Chow will be a lot more comfortable. The Jets are going after matt Schaub from the Falcons pretty aggressively which leads me to believe they are content to stay where they are at. I think they will take Cutler or pass on a QB (since I've never heard them mention Vince to NY).

I guess we'll know more after all the pro days. It will be interesting to see how these guys perform.

 

See this is not the comment of a Texan fan. My favorite player is LT but I certainly would never root for the Chargers when they come here. My favorite of all time is Barry sanders and I wouldn't root for the lions. Same when the Pistons play the Rockets (Obviously you can figure out the Detroit theme in here). I've lived in Houston my entire life except my first 7 months so these are the teams I cheer for first. If you love Young that much then you can't possibly provide an unbiased opinion in any of your posts (assuming you are a Texan fan).

 

Chow will not get his way, Fisher and Reese will draft Vince, after all the success they have had with McNair they will want the same combination of running and passing at the QB position.

Also, McNair has been threatening to retire, drafting Vince will keep him around for a couple more years.

The Titans are going to make out like bandits.

Bush is a good player, but no way, would I take a guy who was a part time college player number one.

Look at Rocket Ismail or Desmond Howard as examples of great college players whose speed gets minimized in the NFL....I full expect that to happen to Bush.

There are NO MORE GALE SAYERS available, he was a fast man in a slow man's game...the NFL has changed, everyone is fast now....EVERYONE, except the QB in most cases....which is why I would take Young....he adds an entirely new dimension to a team....

If you Blitz, he can take off and score a TD, if you stay back in zone, he can pick you apart with his passing.....

Vince is a new breed of player.....Bush is like Willie Parker....gonna be good....but not going to be anything you can't get in round 2 or 3.

DD

 

I grew up in Houston, and was the biggest Oiler fan you could ever imagine. I even rooted for the Titans for a couple of years once the Oilers left.

I have not embraced the Texans....they have proven to be a class organization, with Bozo running the club....they have made horrible picks on draft day, and in free agency.....And, they are sticking with a QB I think is very overated.

I am NOT a Texans fan yet, and I live in Austin, so have had the pleasure of watching Vince Young develop, and I tell you he is the best college player I have ever seen....EVER !!!

Better than Bo Jackson, better than Joe Montana, better than...well anyone else who played the college game. And, I can not believe that the Texans would be dumb enough not to draft a home town boy, someone who admittadly WANTS to play for them.

Am I a Vince fan....yes, but not a Vince only fan....I just think he will be the best player in the NFL in 3 to 5 years barring injury.....

He has a blend of atheticism, leadership, and competitiveness that usually lends itself to greatness.

And, I think the Texans honeymoon is over, they are rebuilding, they should start with a new QB...IMHO.

DD

 

Got ya. I'll agree with everything about the texans except Carr being overrated. Until we fix our line, get him a #2 receiver, a TE and hopefully a gamebreaking RB then I won't hate on the guy. The punishment he's taken these past 4 years is simply unheard of. I think he deserves some slack.

If you think Vince if the greatest college player ever then that's your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. I don't. I think he put on one of the best performances everi n a National Championship game but I don't think he's the best ever. That's my opinion.

The Texans are under a different regimine now. They have evaluated these guys (up until this point) and decided Vince wasn't out guy. That doesn't mean he won't be a good or even great NFL player it just means the Texans feel Bush is a better option. I understand the hometown thing and that would sell tons of tickets so there must be something making us pass. It may be Kubiaks endorsement of Carr or the fact that they feel Bush is truly going to live up to all of the hype (because even half makes him a HOF'er).

That's a bold statement about Vince. I think he has a two year learning curve once he hits the pros. Saying he's going ot be the best player in the NFL in 3-5 years is certainly expecting a lot.

I don't disagree that those are all strongpoints of VY's.

The Texans are an unknown entity right now. Even though we had a disasterous season last year with the right moves and player development we could be 8-8 or even fight for a plyoff spot. We were on our way and then just tanked. Bad rafting and coaching finally caught up to us.

 

I don't know about this. Fisher may not even be the coach beyond this season. McNair already restructered his deal to a one year one. This is Steve's last go round. He may stay on as a mentor if they pick Vince but i don't think he has any influence.

Chow on the other hand may have a lot of influence. He may be in line to succeed Fisher and he worked wonders with USC's offense and Leinart. You couldn't call it a dumb move to pass on Vince and pick Leinart. He's the top rated QB in the draft (whether you agree or disagree).

Just because he only carried the ball 15 tiumes a game doesn't make him a part time player. He lined up at receiver and returned punts and kicks. He did everything for that team on offense. A part time player doesn't put up those numbers.

He's nothing like Howard or Ismail. That's like comparing Young to Akilli Smith (and at least the positions were right). Those two were undersized receivers.

You aren't finding a rb like Bush in the second round and comparing him to an undrafted FA from last season makes no sense.

 

If you actually kept up with Reggies entire college career instead of just watching highlight clips you would know his success depends a lot on the other team's speed. Remember the hype didn't start until AFTER the Fresno State game when he face a slow defense even by college standards. AFter that game his name and face appeared on the front of every sports newspaper, website, and magazine. Before then he running 2nd or 3rd behind VY and sometimes ML in the ESPN Heisman watch. In eight out of the 13 games this past year he rushed for over 100 yards, not bad but certainly not incredible. The year before he only had TWO 100+ yard rushing games. IMO, the hype is incredibly misplaced and he is definitely not better than ML or VY over the past two years. BTW he seems to have UCLA's # since he ripped them for 200+ on the ground in 2004 too.

I don't see your point, VY works with McNair, and I think Warren Moon works with ML's agent sometimes and sort of mentors some newly drafted players.

The holes will be smaller in the NFL and non-existant if we don't improve our O-line. Denver (and Kubiak) has done a great job picking up mediocre NFL backs for relatively cheap and turning them into 1,000 yard rushers because of his O-line blocking shemes, which is why I originally thought Kubiak would lean away from paying a running back 1st pick $$.

Yes, but so did every other team that USC faced. The NC just showed how a little extra speed from a fast (relatively) Texas D could do to RB's game. I think in the NFL teams will find they only need 1-2 good tacklers to keep him in check.

I've never felt that RB has that "winning" aura/attitude about him. He's just not a proven winner in my book, whereas ML and VY are. The most clutch play he ever did was shove ML into the endzone

 

Have the Texans really decided Vince isn't our guy? If so why are they even bothering to bring him for workouts? I think VY has the potential to change the QB position and how QBs are perceived. Might that something making us pass be. . . stupidity? Texans management has shown it before and I doubt we've seen the last of it until there are more personnel changes. Like I've said from the beginning, if the Texans were truly concerned about winning rather than the $$ they should trade the pick. We have much bigger holes than in the RB position. We already have a good Punt return/kickoff return guy, and I don't see Bush as a good 2nd WR, maybe a 3rd. RB will put butts in seats because of his explosiveness, just like Vick. But since VY is a hometown boy i think he'll put even more butts in seats and sell more merchandise.

 

i don't know if this has been mentioned before. I'd be shocked if it hasn't but John McLain said this week that at the Sage Rosenfels press conference, he asked Sage whether the staff had discussed the possibility of him starting. The inference from that question was the scenario where Carr wasn't here and VY is drafted. McLain said Sage just stared at him for a while, Kubiak didn't say anything and Sage then said, no . . . that hasn't been discussed.

If true, we're not taking vince. Too much circumstantial evidence indicating that we're not taking vince over Carr (yes, over Carr, not bush. that's the real question).

I suppose there's still hope that Vince runs a 4.1 on the 40 Acres and passes like Marino. As much as I'd like for this to happen, Anon, it's not happening. I can't think of a situation in recent history where I've hoped I'm wrong more than now.