Thanks, rhad. I'll definitely give those a look. Eternal Hell seems petty to the amount of time we all have, and many churches take Jesus's references to Hell such as the Lake of Fire (Luke 16) or the Wheat and Weeds (Matt 13:24) as proof rather than parables for teaching particular lessons. Always wanted some history from some concise sources.
I'm not a big St. Jerome fan but I do like St. Matthew, St. Mark, Luke and John ... None of these verses were translated out of the Vulgate. And the Hebrew phrase 'morning star' is not used either, same for the Greek texts. In Matthew chapter 4 Jesus uses 3 different words to describe the same event and person- the devil (Diablo), the tempter (Peirazo), and the adversary (Santanos)- or something like that St. Matthew 4:1-11, "Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit, into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward a hungered. And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou by the Son of God, command these stones to be made break. But he answered, and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple. And said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down; for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee; and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And said unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan; for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Then the devil leaveth him, and behold, angels came and ministered unto him." St. Matthew 12:22-28 -- "Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb; and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the Son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you." St. Matthew 16:23 -- "But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan; thou art an offense unto me; for thou savorest not the things that be of God, but those that be of man." Note: This scripture clearly tells us that Satan is an actual "real" spirit. Satan entered Peter and caused him to say what he did to Jesus. Jesus recognized the satanic spirit and rebuked it. Notice, Jesus did not rebuke Peter, just the satanic spirit. St. Mark 1:13 -- "And he was there in the wilderness forty days tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him." St. Mark 4:15 -- "And these are they by the wayside, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts." St. Mark 8:33 -- "But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan; for thou savorest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men." St. Luke 4:8 -- "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan; for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." St. Luke 10:18 -- "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightening fall from heaven." Note: Jesus said this because he was emphasizing the fact that he was God manifest in the flesh through Jesus Christ. He is talking about the fact that he was around when Satan fell from heaven, which was before the creation of Adam and Eve. St. Luke 11:18 -- "If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? Because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub." St. Luke 13:16 -- "And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath day?" St. Luke 22:3 -- "Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve." St. Luke 22:31 -- "And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold Satan, hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat; But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not; and when thou art converted, strengthen they brethren." St. John 13:27 -- "And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly." The Acts 5:3 -- "But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?" The Acts 26:18 -- "To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me." Romans 16:20 -- "And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen." 1 Corinthians 5:5 -- "To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." 1 Corinthians 7:5 -- "Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency." 2 Corinthians 2:11 -- "Lest Satan should get an advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devises." 2 Corinthians 12:7 -- "And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure." 1 Thessalonians 2:18 -- "Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us." 2 Thessalonians 2:9 -- "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders." 1 Timothy 1:20 -- "Of whom is Hymeneus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme." 1 Timothy 5:15 -- "For some are already turned aside after Satan." The Revelation 2:9 -- "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." The Revelation 2:24 -- "But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depth of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden." The Revelation 3:9 -- "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee." The Revelation 12:7-9 -- "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels. And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
The word Lucifer only occurs once, IIRC, in the Old Testament. And in the Old Testament, The Adversary who makes an appearance in Job has a much more collegial relationship with God and works for God. The Adversary is like a prosecutor in God's court. There are all sorts of nebulously defined demons in the Old Testament like Behemoth and Beelzebub (The Lord of the Flys) that have been given an elaborate "back story" by medieval Christians. If you confine yourself to the New Testaments it won't be clear that there is some discord, because it is between the New and the Old that this discord exists. The New Testament was effectively homogenized into a unified entity.
It's in Isaiah, and it is the focus of the above commentary. EDIT: To be totally accurate, the vulgate used the term several times (including in the new testament), but only the Isaiah passage carried over all the way to the King James version. I think NIV replaces it with morning star again. Jesus' satan is a different idea born from a different generation of "believers". The interesting tidbit is in how the two were reconciled. EDIT: As Otto pointed out, in the old testament satan is not a "cause" of sin and evil - he is, at best, only capable of doing things after humans perform evil activities. God reserves control of both good and evil and this is mentioned specifically in Isaiah and a few other books. Unlike previous old testament redaction, we have a clear view of the effort this time around. EDIT: Satan of the new-thought-process is the product of pagan mythos about fallen angels. Almost all of his story is simply "traditionalist" redaction. EDIT #2: The story of the jealous angel rebelling against god and being cast down is not supported at all. The idea of a permanent adversary to god's will is not supported at all. What is supported is an entity that feeds and thrives off the evil inherent in humanity - and this has been altered over many years because it makes for a real strange god. More importantly, IMO, it places a great deal of burden on humans - it's a heck of a lot more convenient to blame the devil and trust in salvation.
I'm with you and rhad on the Old Testament issues, but it is not a matter of 'confine' when addressing the New Testament. It is a matter of using Jesus as a basis for understanding regardless of any attempt to reconcile context to the Old Testament. For instance, most every Old Testament scholar of Jesus' day did not find a context in the Old Testament for Jesus message and claims about himself. Jesus would quote an Old Testament verse such as Psalm 35:19 " let them wink with the eye who hate me without a cause" and attribute it to himself when clearly David wrote it about himself. Jesus did this often. What Jesus said about devils or spiritual adversaries or demons and evil spirits is clear. It would be fine to take the 'devil' or 'Satan' as a New Testament revelation. Most everything Jesus said was confusing to the Jewish context of the Old Testament. I think most Christians would only use the New Testament to define the Messiah, it would be equally appropriate to use the New Testament writings to understand the adversary.
Addressing Hell, Judgment, etc. Again there is no need to reference Old Testament context to understand Jesus' New Testament teaching. There is no confusion with Jesus concerning a literal judgment, here are just a few verses: Matthew 5:21-22 21Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 23: 29-33 29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Matthew 13:39-41 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. Matthew 18:7-9 7Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! 8Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. 9And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. Matthew 25:40-42 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: Mark 9:42-48 42And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Luke 12:4-5 4And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. Luke 17: 24-30 24For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. 25But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. 26And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. Much of the confusion today in Christian thought on these subjects has nothing to do with the words of Christ, but with the wishes of men in my opinion. It is easier for men to attribute human reasoning to God than to attribute God's truth to men. Not every Christian agrees with the teachings in the New Testament concerning justice, mercy, judgment and forgiveness. They are legal issues and often they are treated as emotional issues. A lawyer would understand that an innocent person has no need for mercy when perfect justice would clear the case and a guilty person would seek mercy not perfect justice. There is a big question within the church today as to whether there is any case at all between God and man, and any fault on either side. Often today people are viewed as 'victims' - or better put- some believe perfect love makes no provision for perfect justice. I speak of course from a Christan Pastor's perspective.
It's strange but I use the exact same reasoning and come to almost the opposite conclusion. It's easy for men to see a right and wrong, and makes sense for people who do these things to be punished. Human nature cries out for that. Even kids when someone does something they don't like tend to strike out and push. They want to see punishment done. To me something that goes beyond human nature and into the divine would be forgiving those that deserve the punishment and returning hate with only love. To my (admittedly limited) understanding that is closer to Jesus. God is love: those that know love know God. All of the verses you mentioned are a literal judgement, but it isn't God sending you anywhere, it's you removing yourself from God(love.) That would be hell. Look at the one verse you posted: Matthew 5:21-22 21Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Calling people fool isn't loving, you won't be loved in return if you run around doing that with malice in your heart. And if given the literal meanings of hell from the bible, it is a metaphor for the kind of life someone without love lives it still makes perfect sense. It also fits in with the larger context of pull the tree trunk out of your own eye before removing the splinter from your brothers. Because you are the one who will suffer if you treat everyone like they are foolish, and hold that kind of attitude. It makes it so much more personal and seemingly connected to God(love). After all the kingdom of heaven isn't somewhere else, it's within you. To me the whole good guys get rewards bad guys get punished is very human, and not really divine at all. All cultures have that. What makes Christianity special is the grace, forgiveness, loving your enemy, not answering violence with more violence, but love.
Or not. Note that the only really clear idea of satan in the old testament (ha-satan in Job) fits very neatly with the satan that tempted jesus. Neither of which was considered adversarial as much as a tempter that thrived off of of humanity's predisposition to sin. The christian ideology of satan as a sort of physical or supernatural embodiment of evil and sin is just not supported. The back stories don't fit and the results are non-sensical. Umm. Defining the messiah without the old testament kind of makes the entire messiah aspect moot. Without the old testament, there is nothing to be a messiah for or to fullfill.
I wasn't trying to interpret Matthew 5:21-22 I was stating all of those verses in one context from the words of Christ because they all share one context, specifically concerning judgment and justice. No where in those verses is there a mention of removing love from anyone, and to argue that all they say is that God won't be where you are is a vague look at the context- let's look at the words Jesus used in context- danger escape the damnation of hell cast them into a furnace of fire cast into everlasting fire depart from me...into everlasting fire enter into hell fire that shall never be quenched cast into hell destroyed them all There are many more verses of Christ's own words that confirm this context. I understand your feelings but you should also consider that forgiving those who deserve punishment is not inconsistent or a contradiction to punishing those who deserve justice. Jesus made it abundantly clear that God's perfect love made provision for mercy. He also made it perfectly clear that hypocrites were not eligible. Any judge must determine one's eligibility for pardon. These are divine legal issues not human emotions. I personally (as does God) want everyone to be forgiven but only God offers the mercy that would clear those from His judgment and that is not offered universally but specifically, especially in Christ's own teaching. These verses provide clear context on their own- that's why I placed them together. Jesus made it very clear his teaching relates to who will be judged and who will receive mercy. That context should be diligently sought out by those who are Christians.
Doesn't seem fitting that even 1% of all humans ever will go to hell, right? That's why I think it's only there for a select few, the likes of which you will rarely meet in your lifetime.
Free will? what does that have to do with anything? Starving children in africa dont have free will to just leave their situation. But wait, their not christian!!! Burn in hell!!! It doesn't make any sense. Im sure they pray harder than any of us spoiled ass americans but they dont get ****. Believe it or not buddy, there are some people in the world that are constantly suffering, and dont "sin", but according to the bible, since they aren't christian or weren't baptised.....straight to the sizzler
this statement you've made is not according to the bible at least I am not aware of that in the bible just expect God to do the right thing in every case now if you and I would do the right thing concerning those who have no choice but to endure constant suffering.... there lies the rub
I think we are not 100% in the same place, but I don't necessarily think we are that far away either. I see the words you mentioned, and I think they are descriptive figurative language to describe what happens when you live your life apart from God(aka love). As far as the punishment goes, certainly living without love would make some miserable and be a horrible punishment. It must surely feel like endless pain and fire inside someone who did that. It is a danger to their emotional and even physical health to do that. And those consequences are a direct result of a sin against God(love).
Ah, so should we pray for them? Should we take it in our own hands, or let god handle it? You and I can do the right thing, but many people would rather spend what they have on materialistic things. There lies my question, why would god put the suffering people in the hands of citizens who 98% would rather get a new iphone instead of donate to a good cause, if in fact, god has the power to answer prayer and help these people?
I know what you're saying, I go on these rants in my head daily. Do you have a religious background? It seems like the people most upset and bitter toward religion are the ones that used to be involved with it. The conveniently simple answer of "well, life just isn't fair" or "that's why we need to go give them bibles and love on them during mission trips" doesn't really jive with me anymore. God gave us free will all the while KNOWING, before the first sin, that his children would fall from grace and many would live apart from him (and be "apart" from him for eternity, whether or not heaven and hell are literal). God created people capable of sin, so in my opinion, it's on him. Unless he creates sinful people just to watch them suffer, which seems kind of horrible. Personally, I'm just tired of watching people have to constantly apologize for and agonize over their humanness because of some invisible force they (many times) strongly doubt even exists. I think it's great that a lot of people believe strongly and do a lot of great things because of their faith, but for many of us, the whole shebang is just one huge mind****.
We were talking about the non-existant basis for satan as traditionally defined by christianity. I'm not sure how any of what you wrote applies. Quibbling in the extreme. Jesus goes out of his way to specifically indicate that he is fullfilling the old testament, and all of the apostles thereafter repeatedly emphasize this. You're altering the goal posts and avoiding the point of the current discussion. At a minimum, you need to have a "fall of man" for jesus to even be necessary. If one ignores the old testament jesus is just another miracle workin' isrealite with a predisposition for sermonizing. Wooo.
