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More Jesus Freak Stuff from MadMax

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by MadMax, Dec 2, 2009.

  1. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    I read this and wanted to post it here. Claiborne is a guy I really look up to, and whose book, "Jesus for President" is among the most challenging reads I've ever read.

    http://www.esquire.com/features/best-and-brightest-2009/shane-claiborne-1209

    What If Jesus Meant All That Stuff?
    This radical Christian's ministry for the poor, The Simple Way, has gotten him in some trouble with his fellow Evangelicals. We asked him to address those who don't believe.

    By Shane Claiborne

    To all my nonbelieving, sort-of-believing, and used-to-be-believing friends: I feel like I should begin with a confession. I am sorry that so often the biggest obstacle to God has been Christians. Christians who have had so much to say with our mouths and so little to show with our lives. I am sorry that so often we have forgotten the Christ of our Christianity.

    Forgive us. Forgive us for the embarrassing things we have done in the name of God.

    The other night I headed into downtown Philly for a stroll with some friends from out of town. We walked down to Penn's Landing along the river, where there are street performers, artists, musicians. We passed a great magician who did some pretty sweet tricks like pour change out of his iPhone, and then there was a preacher. He wasn't quite as captivating as the magician. He stood on a box, yelling into a microphone, and beside him was a coffin with a fake dead body inside. He talked about how we are all going to die and go to hell if we don't know Jesus.

    Some folks snickered. Some told him to shut the hell up. A couple of teenagers tried to steal the dead body in the coffin. All I could do was think to myself, I want to jump up on a box beside him and yell at the top of my lungs, "God is not a monster." Maybe next time I will.

    The more I have read the Bible and studied the life of Jesus, the more I have become convinced that Christianity spreads best not through force but through fascination. But over the past few decades our Christianity, at least here in the United States, has become less and less fascinating. We have given the atheists less and less to disbelieve. And the sort of Christianity many of us have seen on TV and heard on the radio looks less and less like Jesus.

    At one point Gandhi was asked if he was a Christian, and he said, essentially, "I sure love Jesus, but the Christians seem so unlike their Christ." A recent study showed that the top three perceptions of Christians in the U. S. among young non-Christians are that Christians are 1) antigay, 2) judgmental, and 3) hypocritical. So what we have here is a bit of an image crisis, and much of that reputation is well deserved. That's the ugly stuff. And that's why I begin by saying that I'm sorry.

    Now for the good news.

    I want to invite you to consider that maybe the televangelists and street preachers are wrong — and that God really is love. Maybe the fruits of the Spirit really are beautiful things like peace, patience, kindness, joy, love, goodness, and not the ugly things that have come to characterize religion, or politics, for that matter. (If there is anything I have learned from liberals and conservatives, it's that you can have great answers and still be mean... and that just as important as being right is being nice.)

    The Bible that I read says that God did not send Jesus to condemn the world but to save it... it was because "God so loved the world." That is the God I know, and I long for others to know. I did not choose to devote my life to Jesus because I was scared to death of hell or because I wanted crowns in heaven... but because he is good. For those of you who are on a sincere spiritual journey, I hope that you do not reject Christ because of Christians. We have always been a messed-up bunch, and somehow God has survived the embarrassing things we do in His name. At the core of our "Gospel" is the message that Jesus came "not [for] the healthy... but the sick." And if you choose Jesus, may it not be simply because of a fear of hell or hope for mansions in heaven.

    Don't get me wrong, I still believe in the afterlife, but too often all the church has done is promise the world that there is life after death and use it as a ticket to ignore the hells around us. I am convinced that the Christian Gospel has as much to do with this life as the next, and that the message of that Gospel is not just about going up when we die but about bringing God's Kingdom down. It was Jesus who taught us to pray that God's will be done "on earth as it is in heaven." On earth.

    One of Jesus' most scandalous stories is the story of the Good Samaritan. As sentimental as we may have made it, the original story was about a man who gets beat up and left on the side of the road. A priest passes by. A Levite, the quintessential religious guy, also passes by on the other side (perhaps late for a meeting at church). And then comes the Samaritan... you can almost imagine a snicker in the Jewish crowd. Jews did not talk to Samaritans, or even walk through Samaria. But the Samaritan stops and takes care of the guy in the ditch and is lifted up as the hero of the story. I'm sure some of the listeners were ticked. According to the religious elite, Samaritans did not keep the right rules, and they did not have sound doctrine... but Jesus shows that true faith has to work itself out in a way that is Good News to the most bruised and broken person lying in the ditch.

    It is so simple, but the pious forget this lesson constantly. God may indeed be evident in a priest, but God is just as likely to be at work through a Samaritan or a prostitute. In fact the Scripture is brimful of God using folks like a lying prostitute named Rahab, an adulterous king named David... at one point God even speaks to a guy named Balaam through his donkey. Some say God spoke to Balaam through his ass and has been speaking through asses ever since. So if God should choose to use us, then we should be grateful but not think too highly of ourselves. And if upon meeting someone we think God could never use, we should think again.

    After all, Jesus says to the religious elite who looked down on everybody else: "The tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the Kingdom ahead of you." And we wonder what got him killed?

    I have a friend in the UK who talks about "dirty theology" — that we have a God who is always using dirt to bring life and healing and redemption, a God who shows up in the most unlikely and scandalous ways. After all, the whole story begins with God reaching down from heaven, picking up some dirt, and breathing life into it. At one point, Jesus takes some mud, spits in it, and wipes it on a blind man's eyes to heal him. (The priests and producers of anointing oil were not happy that day.)

    In fact, the entire story of Jesus is about a God who did not just want to stay "out there" but who moves into the neighborhood, a neighborhood where folks said, "Nothing good could come." It is this Jesus who was accused of being a glutton and drunkard and rabble-rouser for hanging out with all of society's rejects, and who died on the imperial cross of Rome reserved for bandits and failed messiahs. This is why the triumph over the cross was a triumph over everything ugly we do to ourselves and to others. It is the final promise that love wins.

    It is this Jesus who was born in a stank manger in the middle of a genocide. That is the God that we are just as likely to find in the streets as in the sanctuary, who can redeem revolutionaries and tax collectors, the oppressed and the oppressors... a God who is saving some of us from the ghettos of poverty, and some of us from the ghettos of wealth.

    In closing, to those who have closed the door on religion — I was recently asked by a non-Christian friend if I thought he was going to hell. I said, "I hope not. It will be hard to enjoy heaven without you." If those of us who believe in God do not believe God's grace is big enough to save the whole world... well, we should at least pray that it is.


    Your brother,

    Shane



    Read more: http://www.esquire.com/features/best-and-brightest-2009/shane-claiborne-1209#ixzz0YXh3p6LA
     
    3 people like this.
  2. DonnyMost

    DonnyMost be kind. be brave.
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    However not my cup of tea, I'll say this much. It is the hardest thing in the world to be a true Christian. To that end, those people have my utmost respect.
     
  3. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

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    Time to sell all those Lamborghinis and ski boats MadMax.
     
  4. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    it's a lot more difficult than that! :)
     
  5. Mulder

    Mulder Contributing Member

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    Right on, right on. Good read, MM. Keep it coming.
     
  6. thegary

    thegary Contributing Member

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    At one point Gandhi was asked if he was a Christian, and he said, essentially, "I sure love Jesus

    ^you think that was enough to get him "saved?"
     
  7. finalsbound

    finalsbound Contributing Member

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    Thanks for posting, that was a great read. Shane Claiborne, along with Aaron Weiss (I think both part of the Simple Way, or both Philadelphia-based) are probably the two Christians I respect the most.
     
  8. rimbaud

    rimbaud Contributing Member
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    Christianity is coming to a really interesting crossroads. First you have the confrontation that is lingering between First and Third world. Third world Christianity is a strange hybrid of conservative “old school” medieval Catholicism and aggressive Protestantism mixed with supernatural remnants of more tribal belief systems. Third world Christians outnumber First and are beginning to demand more power/visibility as well as migrate to the richer countries with their beliefs in tow. That could get sticky. Missionary pains in reverse.

    Then in the Western world, especially the US (the most Christian industrialized nation) there is a further splintering with mega churches preaching the prosperity gospel and promoting “feel good” Christianity, mega churches that are much more fire and brimstone, a fading – and thus more reactionary – Catholic church, and a normally happy-go-lucky Episcopal church coming apart because of female and gay priests. Finally, you have Max’s budding group – the Christians who feel that Christianity has gotten in the way of Jesus. The bleeding heart Christians who want to have big hearts as Jesus taught. How big will this movement grow? Obviously not as big as Osteen because it involves so much more work and sacrifice…but still, it is an interesting postmodern internal reaction that parallels agnosticism to a degree. What do you do when you still believe but don’t believe in Christianity as currently practiced?

    What do you think, Max? Is Christianity going to contract? Keep opening the umbrella but become more meaningless as a broad definition? Go into a new holy war? Be like late antiquity Christianity with everyone not knowing what is really Christian?
     
  9. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    I don't know what's next. I know how the story ends, though. :)

    I do think the words Christianity and Christian mean so many different things to so many different people now that the words are utterly meaningless. (I like Christ-follower or Jesus Freak better, personally).

    So if there's contraction in the number of people who identify themselves as Christian, I'm not sure that really matters if being Christian means nothing more than showing up to church occasionally on Sundays. I don't think society feels much of an impact in that.

    the movement you're talking about which you relate to me has been labelled the Emerging Church movement by those outside of it. I don't particularly like that label, either.

    As for the question: "what do you do when you still believe but don't believe in Christianity as currently practiced?" -- I can tell you from my own experience. You find a church that does believe the way you do, assuming you're fortunate enough to live near a group like that. And then you join with them to love on their surrounding community WITH NO STRINGS ATTACHED as much as possible.
     
  10. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Contributing Member

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    I just hope that christians start to realize that following jesus is a much broader concept than mere "christianity".
     
  11. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    it's a harder sell....and pastors concerned with filling seats in big arenas find it's much easier to sell something other than following one who said, "expect to be persecuted in my name" and suggested that you should "count the cost" before following him. that message is much more difficult to sell then, "say the magic words and you're in!!" or "God has promised you a rose garden!!!"
     
  12. YallMean

    YallMean Member

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    What I am interested to learn is why non-believers are not able to follow the "good"?

    I don't mean to challenge Christianity or be offensive. Thank you in advance.
     
  13. ElPigto

    ElPigto Member
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    Wonderful article. For a former believer, I agree with a lot of his points. I definitely respect those out there that are true Jesus followers.
     
  14. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    As a Christian who would never say that, I can't imagine what the reason would be.
     
  15. Grizzled

    Grizzled Member

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  16. YallMean

    YallMean Member

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    I often run into conversations where it boils down to that non-believers need to be saved b/c they are not capable of following the "good".

    But that's a misconception, now you said it. Thanks. :cool:
     
  17. Classic

    Classic Member

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    Good stuff, as usual. Thanks.
     
  18. justtxyank

    justtxyank Contributing Member

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    I'm not sure I get what you mean, but if I do, you are referring to the belief in the need for salvation. The concept is based in the idea that God is a wholly just God and can judge mankind in no other way but pure justice. By this standard, any imperfection falls short of God's standard and therefore salvation could only be purchased by the blood of Christ, the pure sacrifice.
     
  19. YallMean

    YallMean Member

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    Yeah, that sounds like it.

    Does that mean a non-believer is less perfect (for lack of a better term) than a good believer?
    I can understand to follow the "good", but it is hard for me to understand why there is only one way,namely the God's way, to follow the "good".
     
  20. justtxyank

    justtxyank Contributing Member

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    That theory operates under the idea that a believer is no better than a non-believer, they have just made the choice to accept God's gift of salvation, a gift of grace that anyone can have regardless of how "good" they may or may not be.
     

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