Islam's image

I think Houston has the largest Ismaili population in the US. Could be wrong though.

 

It's not? Then what is it?

You still haven't highlighted why Bukhari was "irrational". Because he wanted to compile an authentic version of narrations of the Prophet (pbuh)? Because he wasn't from the Arabian Peninsula? What about him makes him so "irrational", according to you?

And you still haven't bothered answering any of my questions. If a hadith is authentic with a strong isnad, then on what grounds can be disregarded? Through an association fallacy?

OK? I have already proved that the hadith in question is authentic and has multiple train of narrations. Therefore, a handful of liars who tried to use hadith to their benefit has little to do with the hadith you start this little debate over.

What book is this? He authored six documents, none of which have anything to do with what you are purporting above. I urge you to actually know what you're talking about.

Actually, no. With that logic, Abu Lahab was a Sahaba when he was not.

Again with fallacious reasoning. Some people who lied does not automatically distinguish Bukhari's credibility. Bukhari recorded over 300,000 hadith. Only ~7,000 are in Sahih Bukhari.

An association fallacy is not a good reason.

What "equivalent methods of cross-checking"? Mind highlighting exactly what this "equivalent methods of cross-checking" entails?

Mind quoting the part of the Qur'an that agrees with this ridiculous sentiment? Some of the statements you make makes me wonder if you even know what Sahih means. Of course, I doubt you will back up half the asinine stuff you have posted.

He intended to create an authentic compilation of hadith. That is what his teacher suggested to him and is what he did.

Umm, the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh) and the Hadith Qudsi was already being used to create laws.

They don't believe Muhammad (pbuh) was the Last Prophet. They don't believe Jesus was the Messiah. Instead some Ahmadis believe Mirza Ahmad was the Messiah and the final Prophet (things which are blasphemous according to the Qur'an).

Except a common Shia belief is that Muhammad, Fatimah, Ali (and the other 11 Imams in Shia Islam) were all infallible. Read up on the Fourteen Infallible.

 

This thread gives interesting insight into islam's image.

 

1) Bukhari was perfectly rational. But Bukhari is not the author. You don't seem to understand this.

2) A strong isnad is subjective. You can't claim accuracy based on subjectivity. Just like your best friend may think you're a great guy but ATW thinks you're a dangerously aggressive Islamist. Which one is accurate to a third party?

3) The point is that Bukhari could not and did not attempt to achieve perfection. But you are claiming that since a hadith is classified as Sahih that it is perfectly accurate, even though there may be a person outside the chain who Bukhari never met who has valid reasons to disagree and we will NEVER KNOW THAT.

4) Using your own information, 300,000 - 7,000 = 293,000. But I know that won't be enough for you as you've been taught to think those 293,000 are unconfirmed rather than erroneous.

Here is a list of books for your weekend reading:

- Al-Maudu`at by Abul-Faraj Ibn Al-Jawzi
- Kitab al-Abatil by al-Jauzaqani
- Al-La'ali al- Masnu'ah fi 'l-Ahadith al-Mawdu`ah by al-Suyuti
- Al-Mawdu`at by Ali al-Qari
- Al-Fawaid al-Majmu'ah fi al-Ahaadeeth al-Mawdu'ah by Muhammad ash-Shawkani

Much of bukhari's rejected hadiths are in those books. In all seriousness, reading them will give you a better idea of what was going on at the time.

There's also the fantastic story of Al-Albaani who put forward a more scientific methodology and offered 100 hadiths that can be considered fabricated. He was ofcourse shunned by the Islamic community and revoked of his social status. Up until a few years before this work, he was considered the next Michael Jordan of hadith scholars.


5) Do you know what almost means? Here is the definition of Sahaba according to wiki since that seems to be your preffered medium of info:

Clearly, this definition would then include Munafiqeen because, by definition, you would not know who is a Munafiq unless uncovered, in which case that person would become simply be a non-Muslim.

You may hold the common misconception that the most known Sahaba are the only Sahaba. That is not the case.

6) Someone lying discredits the hadith. I don't care if it discredits Bukhari or not, he is just a reatively great researcher who had his own preferences, ideas, opinions, biases.

When you hear that there were 300,000 and 7,000 remain Sahih, this doesn't indicate to you an environment of misinformation and/or deception from narrators? FYI those numbers are bloated as much of the hadiths are repetitive. The real number is closer to 3 or 4,000.

7) An association fallacy is not a good reason? It's one of the methods used to cut down your 300,000 to 7,000. So can I say the ones which were excluded based on association fallacy have been erroneously excluded? Since it's not a good reason and all.

8) It is practically identical to the "science" of hadith that Bukhari used but with different opinions regarding methodology.

9)

10) Yes, a collection of hadith. Hadith means "talk" or "conversation". He certainly did not state that he is creating a compilation of hadiths which are to supplement the Quran as a requirement for Muslims.

11) Who was using it to create divine law? The Prophet PBUH?

While we're on topic, can you detail the difference between a Quranic aya and a Hadith Qudsi for me? I really don't know and have been wondering what the difference is.

12) You said they disagree with the shahada. Can you please state the shahada? Maybe I'm confused but the shahada says God is ONE and it may state the Muhammad PBUH is His prophet.

13) and by extension you believe that the prominent Sahaba are infallible as their character has never been scrutinized in the hadith collections. We can test this. Can you name one major Islamic error that Umar Bin Khattab made during his Khilafa?

Regardless, it's not important. The moment you say the Prophet PBUH is infallible, you are oprning the door to the possiblity that God has made people infallible because of who they are. If I can use your reasoning for a second.. if the Prophet PBUH is infallible, and a bunch of people can decide on the unquestioned accuracy of a narrated rumor, then it is very possible for there to be 14 infallibles.

I don't think you understand that there are some people considered unreliable simply because they sided with either Ali or Abu Bakr/Umar. Both sides lay claims to misconduct. Both sides use narrations. The subjective nature of the process dictates that if you believe in your own opinion, then the opposing opinion is valid on the same grounds.

 

I said he authored six works, the compilation being one of them. And again, you originally posted that "these were not rational people". Why are you changing your mind now?

Umm, no. Do you know anything about hadith science? Do you know what Mutwatir is? A hadith is mutwatir if it is conveyed by enough people (not just the normal 6-10, but 40+ people) and if the basic concept is the same in each one.

Did not attempt? Are you saying Bukhari made no attempt in trying to make his compilation error free? Again, what's with the ridiculous statements?

293,000 that cannot be confirmed to be authentic. If it cannot be confirmed as authentic, that does not automatically make it an erroneous hadith. It's apparent you are clueless as to how long Bukhari went about compiling his book.

Half of those aren't even in existence anymore and are only known through other writers' work... Al-Mawdu'at al-Kubra contains only fabricated hadith, none of which are found in Sahih Bukhari or Sahih Muslim. Imam Nawawi also criticized the book, saying some of the hadith were sahih and some were hasan.

Shunned? He was given numerous awards, during his lifetime and afterward. A few "scholars" have written badly about him, but then a few other "scholars" have refuted those allegations against him. Your use of the term "Islamic community" is plain disingenuous.

Notice the huge difference from the general definition you gave at first and this one?

So if you can take out 296,000 hadith through vigorous research and cross checking, what does that tell you about the 4,000 left over? That they are just as suspect to the same environment of misinformation and/or deception that you purport? That is simply asinine reasoning.

ROFL, it's not one of the methods. A person's association with anything was not detriment in determining if a hadith was sahih or hasan. Multiple chains of narrations and the credibility of a narrator were much more important.

Umm, no. Bukhari didn't disregard hadith he heard simply because the person he heard it from was Shia (the association fallacy which you believe is acceptable).

Hadith means narrative. I did not say he created it as a supplement to the Qur'an or as a requirement for Muslims. I stated he was suggested by his teacher to compile only authentic hadith of the Prophet (pbuh).

Sharia is not explicitly "divine law". It is a way of life, a path to live by. Muhammad (pbuh) said to use the Qur'an and Sunnah.

A Qur'anic ayah is Allah's (SWT) words while a Hadith Qudsi is a revelation from Allah (SWT) in Muhammad's (pbuh) words.

I testify that there is no God but Allah, and that Muhammad (pbuh) is His Final Messenger.

“Muhammad is not the father of any man among you but he is the Messenger of God and the last (end) of the Prophets and God is Ever All-Aware of everything.” (Quran 33:40)

So when Ahmadis say Mirza Ahmad was the Last Prophet, how does that not contradict the Qur'an here?

I never once said they were infallible, as they all made mistakes.

His expulsion of the Christians and Jews in Khaybar.

I made bold the obvious law in your reasoning. It is not unquestioned and the methodology in authenticated it is quite far from being a 'rumor'.

 

PBUH.

 

Edit: My apologies to showtang, I completely went off topic in the thread. I've cut my response out and created another thread.

 

I thought Mathloom was no longer a......awww...never mind...

DD

 

LOL yes...but you know...the whole "lying to infidels" concept...it is obvious that he applies that concept a whole lot here.

 

Right, because you can't respect a religion if you don't believe in it .

 

Naa in Vancouver, there's more Indians than Muslims. Actually there's a good load of all races in Vancouver

Toronto, I not really sure, Only been studying here for 4 months or so

 

I'm Indian and Muslim, so....

You do realize there are more Muslims in India then Pakistan right? Second biggest Muslim population in the world.

 

Okay I apologize, there might be more in Pakistan according to some sites, but India is third behind Indonesia and Pakistan.

 

Sorry been busy for the past couple of days and I didn't get to see how this thread progressed. I will try to respond to most of the posts eventually, but that's highly unlikely as I barely have time for the BBS nowadays

Jackie, don't be a d-bag man :grin: . Both you and I know that crazies exist in every religion, probably more so in Islam than any other religion mostly because the cultures in which Islam is prevalent are usually the more "raw" ie: assbackwards. There are more muslims in Indonesia that the entire arab world combined, you don't see them starting $h!t. You like to think that Islam itself is the reason for the aggressiveness, the hate, the violence. but I argue that it's the local culture that causes this, not the religion itself.

But back to this thread, and in response to Rocket03, and several others who got their panties in a wad over what I said. Chill out fellas, I'm not trashing anyone. I'm simply expressed that Ismailis, Shiites, and other fringe sects are NOT good representative of the mainstream Islam, simply because they only make up ~15% of what is considered "islam", and they are frowned upon by "mainstream" muslims everywhere. Now here's the kicker: those militant crazies who take the quran out of context and call themselves 'sunnis" aren't really sunnies, and there isn't an islamic country in the world that condones the message those crazies spread and the violence they commit, in fact, the predominant belief among mainstream muslims is that those people will burn in hellfire for killing innocent people, something we are STRICTLY FORBIDDEN TO DO IN THE QURAN. Did you soak that in? The quran clearly states that killing an innocent person is a sin punishable by eternal hellfire.

Now I get to mathloom. You like to act like you know your stuff, and you're the end all source on everything muslim. In reality, you really aren't as knowledgeable as you try to appear to be. I have mad respect for you, but please refrain from arguing something when you clearly lack the background knowledge to make the argument. Further posts to come later today...

 

I think it has been well-established that I can't help it.

As to Indonesia:

Jemaah Islamiyah

August 1, 2000, Jemaah Islamiah attempted to assassinate the Philippine ambassador to Indonesia, Leonides Caday. The bomb detonated as his car entered his official residence in central Jakarta killing two people and injuring 21 others, including the ambassador.
September 13, 2000, a car bomb explosion tore through a packed parking deck beneath the Jakarta Stock Exchange building killing 15 people and injuring 20.
December 24, 2000, JI took part in a major coordinated terror strike, the Christmas Eve 2000 bombings.
December 30, 2000, a series of bombings that occurred around Metro Manila in the Philippines, 22 died and over a hundred were injured. In the following years, several members of the Jemaah Islamiah for their suspected involvement in the bombings.
March 12, 2000, 3 JI members are arrested in Manila carrying plastic explosives in their luggage. One of them is later jailed for 17 years.
June 5, 2002, Indonesian authorities arrest Kuwaiti Omar al-Faruq. Handed over to the U.S. authorities, he subsequently confesses he is a senior al-Qaeda operative sent to Southeast Asia to orchestrate attacks against US interests. He reveals to investigators detailed plans of a new terror spree in Southeast Asia.
After many warnings by US authorities of a credible terrorist threat in Jakarta, on September 23, 2002 a grenade explodes in a car near the residence of a US embassy official in Jakarta, killing one of the attackers.
September 26, 2002, the US State Department issued a travel warning urging Americans and other Westerners in Indonesia to avoid locations such as bars, restaurants and tourist areas.
October 2, 2002, a US Soldier and two Filipinos are killed in a JI nail-bomb attack outside a bar in the southern Philippine city of Zamboanga
October 10, 2002, a bomb rips through a bus terminal in the southern Philippine city of Kidapawan, killing six people and injuring 24. On the same day The US ambassador in Jakarta, Ralph Boyce, personally delivers to the Indonesian President a message of growing concern that Americans could become targets of terrorist actions in her country.
October 12, 2002, on the second anniversary of the USS Cole bombing in Yemen, a huge car bomb kills more than 202 and injures 300 on the Indonesian resort island of Bali. Most are foreigners, mainly Australian tourists. It is preceded by a blast at the US consulate in nearby Denpasar. The attack known as the 2002 Bali Bombing is the most deadly attack executed by JI to date.
Bashir was arrested by the Indonesian police and was given a light sentence for treason.
Hambali was arrested in Thailand on August 11, 2003, and is currently in prison in Jordan, according to Haaretz.
A bomb manual published by the Jemaah Islamiah was used in the 2002 Bali terrorist bombing and the 2003 JW Marriott hotel bombing.
A British-born Australian named Jack Roche confessed to being part of a JI plot to blow up the Israeli embassy in Canberra, Australia on 28 May 2004. He was sentenced to 9 years in prison on 31 May. The man admitted to meeting figures like Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan.
JI are widely suspected of being responsible for the bombing outside the Australian embassy in Jakarta on September 9, 2004, which killed 11 Indonesians and wounded over 160 more.
They are also suspected of committing the October 1st 2005 Bali bombings.
November 9, 2005, bomb-making expert and influential figure in Indonesian terrorist organization, Azahari Husin was killed in a raid at Malang, East Java.
August 5, 2006, Al-Qaeda's Al Zawahiri appeared on a recorded video announcing that JI and Al-Qaeda had joined forces and that the two groups will form "one line, facing its enemies."
June 13, 2007, Abu Dujana, the head of JI's military operations, is captured by Indonesian police.
June 15, 2007, Indonesian police announced the capture of Zarkasih, who was leading Jemaah Islamiah since the capture of Hambali. Zarkasih is believe to be the emir of JI.[22]
February 27, 2008, the leader of JI in Singapore, Mas Selamat Kastari, escaped from the Whitley Road Detention Centre.[23]
April 1, 2009, Mas Selamat Kastari was recaptured in Johor, Malaysia.[24]
July 17, 2009, Jemaah Islamiah blamed for attacks on the Ritz Carlton Jakarta and the J.W. Marriott hotels in Jakarta.[25]
September 17, 2009, Noordin Top was killed in a raid by Indonesian police in Solo, Central Java. Top was a recruiter, bomb maker, and explosions expert for Jemaah Islamiyah. However, later on his colleagues in Jemaah Islamiah claimed that Noordin had formed his own splinter cell which was even more violent and militant. He was for a while dubbed the 'most wanted Islamic militant in South East Asia'.
March 9, 2010, Dulmatin was killed in a raid by Detasemen khusus 88 in Pamulang, South Jakarta


---------------

Older article from 2001:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1657514.stm





Indonesia, the world's largest Muslim nation, has a wide range of radical Islamist groups - many of which have close links with similar militant organisations throughout the Muslim world.

Some Indonesian radicals may be linked with international terrorism. (...)

---------------------------

More detailed analysis:

http://www.southasiaanalysis.org//papers16/paper1596.html

TERRORISM IN INDONESIA : Role of the Religious Organisations

By C. S. Kuppuswamy

“Most Muslim organizations are reluctant to admit that there is indeed a problem that should be addressed. They are reluctant to admit that there are certain radical elements of Indonesian Muslims who are ready to use terror in order to achieve their aims”.

Prof. Azyumardi Azra, State Islamic University, Indonesia

“We know that the terrorists that operate in Indonesia are hiding behind the banner of Islam. They often claim that any government effort to discredit them will discredit Islam. This circumstance has made it difficult for the government to aggressively arrest, detain the radicals and ban their organizations for fear of being labeled as anti-Islamic”

Ridarson Gallingging, lecturer, YarsiUniversity (The Jakarta Post)

Introduction

The above quotes give an insight of the impact on the counter terrorism efforts of the government by the religious organizations in the country. The religious organizations and institutions, if not abetting, are providing a conducive atmosphere for terrorism to thrive in this country, some by their acts of commission and some by acts of omission. Religious fundamentalism which was suppressed under the New Order regime of Suharto, has resurfaced through the medium of these various organizations and clerics who are acting like true champions of Islam.

Indonesia is the world’s most populous Muslim nation with 90 % Muslims and the remainder 10 % consisting of Hindus, Christians and Buddhists. The country is often proud to indicate to the rest of the world that the majority of the Muslims in the country are tolerant moderates. It is not an Islamic state and the constitution guarantees religious freedom. However some of the recent incidents, such as the attack in June 2005 on Ahmadiyahs, forced closure of some Christian places of worship, attacks on bars and night clubs, threats to the Liberal Islamic Network, and issuance of fatwas against pluralism, secularism and liberal Islam, indicate that the conservative and radical organizations are in full cry and are pursuing their activities with impunity. The government is overlooking, if not encouraging, these radical elements by terming these as minor or stray incidents.

Religious Leaders (Imam, Ulama, Ustaz etc.,)

The role of the religious leaders or scholars is crucial in shaping the public opinion and behaviour of the different Muslim communities, keeping in mind the sensitivities of the other religions or sects as well as the government policy. Religious intolerance, misinterpretations of the religious injunctions and apprehensions of a threat to Islam from the western nations have become the main theme of their sermons.

Muhamad Ali, a lecturer at the State Islamic University, Jakarta, writes that “In Indonesia, generally speaking, the role of many Imams seems to be more ritualistic, formalistic and often artificial. Problems such as corruption, violence and terrorism, social diseases caused by communal disintegration are often ignored or only figure marginally in their sermons”. While classifying them as good and bad he adds that “good imams are those who promote peace and harmony, those who encourage the use of reason while the bad Imams are those who incite intolerance, hatred and violence, those who demand absolutist obedience without reasoning, those who discourage the followers from learning”.

Ansja’ad Mbai who heads the anti terror desk at the office of the Chief Security Minister said recently “50 % of Muslim clerics preaching at Friday prayers had often encouraged hatred and hostility against other religious groups” (Jakarta Post 24 October 2005).

The Imams are no longer apolitical. During the last elections, in certain cases they had given their preferences for the followers to abide by and also expressing their opinion for voting against women candidates.

Islamic Schools (pesantren or madrasah)

Indonesia has more than 14000 plus pesantrens, the majority of which teach a moderate understanding of Islam. Only five peasantren are closely linked to Jemaah Islamiah and teach a fundamental interpretation of Islam. These are al-Mukmin in Ngruki, Sukohardjo in Solo, Al-Multaquien in Jepara (central Java), Dar-us-Syahadh in Boyolali (Central Java and al-Islam in Lamongan in East Java (Sharif Shuja – Terrorism Monitor April 2005 of The Jamestown Foundation).

Investigations of the major terrorist incidents in Bali and Jakarta since 2002 have revealed that some of these pesantren are “breeding extremists through radical interpretation of Islam”. Three of the men convicted for the Bali and Marriott Hotel attacks have been students of the Al-Mukmin boarding school founded by Abu Bakaar Bashir, the alleged head of Jemaah Islamiah.

Consequent to the second Bali incident on October 1, 2005, Vice President Jusuf Kalla announced that the government is planning to monitor the activities of the pesantrens in the country. This has raised a hue and cry from the religious leaders. They consider this as a direct interference in their activities and an affront to the Islamic movements. Former President Abdurrahman Wahid has also criticized this move of the government and opined that it is up to the people to evaluate such pesantren and take suitable action against such erring schools.

Sidney Jones, a terrorism expert and Director of the International Crisis Group, has said that there are18 Islamic schools affiliated to the terror cell of Jemaah Islamiah in the country which were used to train Jihadis. She has also linked these schools with an university in Surakarta, Central Java.

Religious Organizations

Indonesian Ulema council (MUI). This is Indonesia’s top clerical body. This council comprises a broad range of Muslim groups including the Nahdlatul Ulama (NU) and Muhammadiyah. The MUI wants to counter balance the largely secular government.

In July 2005, the council issued a few fatwas that banned liberal interpretations of Islam, declared liberalism and pluralism as haram (forbidden) and also condemned inter-faith prayers and marriages between religions. “These fatwas reflect the growing influence of two groups in particular – the Dewan Dakwah Islamiyah Indonesia, an organization closely linked to the radical right and Committee for International Solidarity, a hard line group founded in the late 1980s during the Suharto regime”(Newsweek August 15, 2005).

In June 2005, President Yudhoyono himself inaugurated the annual conference of the MUI which shows the importance attached by the government to these hard line groups and the council’s influence over the politicians.

Nahdlatul Ulama (NU). NU is a traditional Muslim organization with a membership of approximately 40 million. The NU runs mosques, schools and medical clinics throughout the country. The NU version of Islam is more relaxed one building on traditional values as much as on the Islamic scriptures. Hasyim Muzadi is the leader of this organization. Former President Andurrahman Wahid was earlier the head of this organization and still exerts considerable influence over its members.

Muhammadiyah, established in 1912, is the second largest Muslim organization with a membership of around 30 million. Muhammadiyah is more modernistic with aim of purifying Islam from local tradition (adat) and return to the original source of Islam, the Quran and the Hadith or the Sunnah. Din Syamsuddin is the Chairman and he is also the Deputy Chairman of the Indonesian Ulema Council. Amien Rais, a seasoned politician of Indonesia, was a former head of this organization.

Liberal Islam Network (Jaringan Islam Liberal – JIL). JIL, a recently formed (four-year old) organization headed by Ulil Abshar Abdalla, is located within the Centre for Studies on Information Flows. This network (a small group of Intellectuals) is challenging the radicals’ narrow interpretation of Islam and wants to protect the spirit of tolerance through its activism, radio broadcasts and news paper articles. JIL believes in ijtihad, or the application of reason to interpreting Islamic texts. Even a government committee had appreciated the efforts of this network by proposing some revision to Muslim Family Law such as polygamy.

While the efforts of this network have been welcomed by the moderates, the hardliners have opposed these views and activities of the network. The Indonesian Ulema Council had issued fatwas against pluralism, secularism and liberalism and had also issued threats to evict the Liberal Islam Network from its offices by the beginning of the Islamic fasting month Ramadan.

Radical and Terrorist Organizations

Laskar Jihad (LJ). The LJ was established in 2000 in response to religious violence in Maluku. It is in fact the military wing of Forum Kommunikasi Ahlus Sunnah wal Jammah (Communications Forum of the followers of Sunnah). A few thousand volunteers were given military training in Bogor and sent to Maluku in April 2000 and were involved in creating communal violence. It is more or less an established fact that LJ had the backing of the Indonesian Armed Forces (TNI). This outfit is reportedly disbanded though there is no proof to this effect.

Front Pembela Islam (FPI – Islamic Defenders Front). The FPI was formed in 1998 and it is reportedly having branches in over 20 provinces of the country. Habib Muhammad Riziek Syihab, a religious teacher of Arab descent is its leader. The FPI has been in the news for organizing raids on bars, massage parlours and night clubs on the grounds that the police is ineffective in upholding the laws on gambling and prostitution and that these places of entertainment are denigrating the values of Islam. The police, perhaps with some vested interests, have often overlooked or taken no action against such offenders of the FPI.

Indonesian Mujahidin Council (MMI). The MMI is the country’s umbrella organization for militant groups, headed by Abu Bakar Bashir. The MMI is lobbying to convert Indonesia into an Islamic state. The Islamic movement in Indonesia plays its part both in the political and militant activities. Bashir is known to have established ties with most of the paramilitary groups through the MMI. A former vice president Hamza Haz, while in office, had admitted openly that Bashir is his close friend and had even planned to visit Bashir (while he was in jail).

Jemaah Islamiah (JI). Jemaah Islamiah means Islamic community. The JI was founded in 1993-94 by Abdullah Sungkar who was in exile in Malaysia. The aim of JI is to have an Islamic state encompassing Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, Brunei and the southern parts of Thailand and Philippines. JI has its roots in Darul Islam which had strived for the establishment of an Islamic state in Indonesia in the 1950s and 60s. Abu Bakar Bashir is alleged to be the head of JI and he is currently under detention for a not so serious offence though connected to the Bali blast in October 2002. Though some leaders of this organization have had contacts with Al Qaeda there is little evidence to substantiate that it is the SE Asian wing of Al Qaeda.

For more details on the organization and other aspects of the JI, Paper No.746 dated 28 July, 2003 tiled “Jemaah Islamiah –The Indonesia based Terrorist Organization” of this author posted on this site may be seen.

The JI is believed to have been involved in all the four major bomb attacks – Bali in October 2002 and 2005, at the Marriott Hotel, Jakarta in 2003 and outside the Australian Embassy, Jakarta in 2004.

While the US and UN have listed JI as a terrorist organization, making it illegal for people to provide financial and other support to this group, the Indonesian government is yet to ban this organization. According to an AFP news report, Yusuf Kalla, the Vice-President, told “if we have never recognized the existence of the organization, how can we disband it?”

The Australian Strategic Policy Institute in its report “Local Jihad : Radical Islam and Terrorism in Indonesia” indicates that though the JI has been weakened by the Indonesian crackdown on terrorists and also by some divisions within the network, the threat of terrorism in this country has not reduced to any appreciable degree.

Conclusion

If radical Islam has grown stronger in Indonesia, Suharto is the first one to be blamed, as he turned to the Islamic factions to support them financially and politically, when he realized that he no longer had the support of the military which had put him on top.

Sidney Jones of the International Crisis Group has said that it is a mistake to see Indonesian militancy as monolithic (Far Eastern economic Review- June 17, 2004). She has identified several other terrorist organizations/groups other than Jemaah Islamiah such as

· Radical members of the Ngruki network

· Followers of Darul Islam (which fought for an Islamic state in the 1950s)

· Groups of veterans from Afghanistan and Mindanao training camps operating independently from JI.

Though it may be fair to say that the radical and extremist groups are supported only by a small minority of this predominantly Muslim nation, it is pathetic to see the political and religious leaders supporting these fringe groups, for their own vested interests (primarily as a vote bank), thereby giving these extremist groups respectability and acceptance by the majority.

The positive factor is that there is little evidence to show that the radical or terrorist organizations in Indonesia have been co-opted by outside extremists as is evidenced in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Algeria and Egypt.

The Indonesian police should be given due credit for their limited success in their counter terror operations till date. Since the Bali incident in October 2002, more than 200 suspects have been jailed for terrorist activities including Abu Bakar Bashir under detention for a less serious offence linked with terrorism. Of these 33 JI operatives have been convicted including three sentenced to death.

The Indonesian Government is planning to amend its Anti Terror Law to improve the capability of the police and the intelligence agencies though it has dispelled the fears that it will be on the lines of the Internal Security Act of Malaysia which gives powers to detain suspects indefinitely without trial. This move has also been criticized by some Muslim organizations with the apprehension that Muslim activists on missions for peaceful purposes will be arrested.

President Yudhoyono has often reiterated that he would keep up the pressure on JI and deal with terrorism firmly but it is very much debatable as to how many of the Islamic politicians of his coalition will give him the required support and gain the wrath of the radical groups and lose their backing for political survival.

Islamic organizations are not giving their full support to the government in its efforts to counter terrorism. Though most of them condemn terrorist attacks, they are very defensive and keep harping that such activities should not be linked to Islam as it is being done by the western nations. The mass organizations such as NU and Muhammadiyah should take it upon them to initiate a concerted drive and educate their members and the majority moderate community as well as conduct a campaign against the “violent ideologies and perceived legitimacy” of the radical groups

To sum up in the words of Gary Lamoshi “There is no doubt that violent religious extremism is on the rise in Indonesia, and it presents a greater challenge to democracy and freedom than spectacular acts of terrorism’.

----------------

Common link?

Only one.

 

I don't know how to say it any other way or be more direct to the point:

You are an idiot.

 

I will let my posts decide rather than point the finger with nothing to back me up. I don't buy what the Sunni or Shia or Ismaili or Ahmadi shaikhs are selling and that's obviously what irritates you. You seem to be of the belief that one sect has it 100% right and the rest are just liars who borrow some of the Sunni knowledge to add credibility . If true, that's funny to me. In reality, it's no different than what Christians or Jews think about you.

Look at the world buddy. Sunni Islam is behind in every indicator of societal health there is. Sexism, domestic abuse, education, technology, politics, you name it, it's screwed. This isn't a new phenomenon caused by the current leaders or sheikhs or people either. This is the result of the downward spiraling trend kick-started by the appearance of your ideology which sent the "Islamic" empire from the top to the bottom. Anywhere Sunni Islam is somewhat thriving, it is by selling oil and buying all those things. Not to say that the other sects aren't in a hell hole as well. But the average critical thinker is not asking themselves why Muslims beat themselves. They are asking why Muslims are so involved with terrorism, are decades behind on political reform and continue to hold their century old superiority complex. Those are all attributes of Sunni "Islamic" countries. Those are attributes that originated with the first Caliphate's vicious and inhumane behavior. They started when Abu Bakr and Umar ignored the candidacy of Ali and the leader of the Ansaar. They started with the Caliphates annihilation of libraries, churches, synagogues and cultural artifacts. Then Bukhari comes along and his subsequent followers essentially ingrain the culture of imitation while attaching a hugely negative stigma to innovation. This is why people stopped discussing "What is the Quran?" and started discussing "How long should my beard be?"

Look forward to your responses.

Edit:

Oh and for all those criticizing "Taqqiyya", I'd like to know your thoughts on the Sunni allowance to lie under compulsion:

 

Oh for real? my bad, maybe I meant to say sikhs and hindu. i honestly didn't know there were that many Muslims in india