If that's the contract, it's extremely reasonable. We're all well aware of Chuck's deficiencies, no matter how many people try to downplay them. But we're simply not going to find more productive players making less than 2 million, not unless they're near retirement and playing for a discount like Zo, or Grant Hill, or our very own Deke. At that salary, I'm glad we locked him up long-term. When push comes to shove, we know he can start and still contribute. He wasn't outworked by anyone last year; opponents need to have a lot of talent to make him look bad. Come to think of it, I can't remember anyone making him look bad all year.
Chuck Hayes still has one of the highest production per contract dollar of all PFs in the league. Where could you get more for less? Where could you get the same for the same? He's great value, a rotation player for less than $2 mill per.
DS was responding more to the ludicrous slam of OT, than the abilities of Chuck, who we're all pretty familiar with.
Honestly, a four year contract isn't bad if it is a reasonable contract. I haven't seen the numbers, but if it is back loaded then it's a fairly attractive trade comodity. Pay him little in the beginning and increase his money later on; therefore you can trade it to a team that is in salary hell The contracts that get you in trouble are the 5 and 6 year for 40, 30, or 20 million dollar hand outs. They severly hamper player movements for long durations of time. I have no problem with a 4 year 8 to 10 million dollar deal. Which is what I'm expecting.
Did someone honestly say Hayes is a good low post defender? While I admit that he does a decent (i.e. not good) job of holding his position, he is extremely short and other PF's can easily shoot over him. Not to mention he isn't much of a jumper/shotblocker and doesn't really have the length to block shots. If a PF that can score gets him ISO'd and no one comes to help then I would expect that PF to score the majority of the time. I may be in the minority but I don't think Hayes is a good defender. I think he is good at coming over to help and drawing charges. Some others mentioned that he has the highest conversion rate of our team on close shots. Ok, how many of these does he take a game compared to the other players (% dips as shots increase). I swear to high heavens I see Hayes blow a lay-up each every game. I do think he has a high basketball IQ and does a good job of getting open for T-Mac's lay-ups....but most of his lay-ups are point blank, uncontested attempts and I swear I have seen him blow so many that it's not a suprise when he does it. I appreciate what hayes brings to the team but he should not be our starter if we are serious about contending.
Hayes is good in the sense that he is a trooper with a lot of energy. He does exactly what is asked of him and is in his ability. Of course, he isn't the 1st choice but he is a good solid backup - not starter!! He should give Landry plenty of time to develop.
They don't. I can't even think of one game where this was a repeated problem. Chuck's short, but like you said he holds his position and is right in his man's grill. They don't shoot over him, most scoring big men don't settle for jumpers and he denies the lane. Jumping and shotblocking are not essential for defense. Rodman couldn't jump or block shots either, but he was one of the best defenders of all time. Meanwhile, Stromile Swift can jump AND block shots and he's garbage defensively. You're not even giving him credit for his quick hands, which deflect a lot of passes inside and often strip his man of the ball. It's little things that make him a good defender, not just what shows up on the box score. And any player that can score will score the majority of the time when ISO'd. Duncan and Boozer will burn Yao when ISO'd and he's a great low post defender. Now if you're talking about lower level scorers like Gooden or Wilcox, they will not score on Hayes. Sorry, they just won't. You're in the minority because you're wrong. He is a good defender. The fact that he's good at drawing charges is a testament of his ability to protect the lane, an essential quality for defensive big men. I agree with you completely about Haye's weaknesses on offense, but you couldn't be more wrong about his D. If you think he's terrible offensively and not a good defender, then what's he doing in the league? Apparently, you think he can't contribute on either side of the ball!
I disagree to a certain extent. I think good lateral movement is one of the indicators of good defensive ability. You can never overstate the importance of drawing charges though, I think if we kept a stat on the number of charges drawn , our team last season would be number one primarily because of Hayes and Battier. He took a crucial charge against Fisher in the playoffs that virtually secured our win. Admittedly, Hayes is at a disadvantage against taller opponents, but in the current set-up where defenders are allowed to sag beyond the three second area, that would not be a major problem. Basically , hayes is a good team defender. But he has his off-nights and I agree that with the current composition of our lineup, Hayes should come off the bench.
Chucks 3.7pts and 6.5 boards in 28.5 minutes during the Utah series was some high production. I love the guys hustle and attitude, but I think some people on this board have him way overvalued. Realistically name one other NBA team that Hayes could actually start for?
Maybe I missed something, but WHERE did the $1.6M starting salary figure come from??? Was that just conjecture on someone's part; or does someone on this BBS have ACTUAL knowledge of the terms of the contract?
How many other teams pay their starting PF $1.6 million dollars? No one wants him to start, we think he's an effective bench PF that will still have the opportunity to play with Yao. Name a better PF for that kind of money. And FYI, Chuck's production was hurt in the Utah series because he was on the perimeter guarding Okur. That's right, his production was hurt covering for Yao's only defensive weakness. Yao's the better player so that how it should be, but Chuck did the best he could considering the circumstances.
Even me, who is more open to the idea of Hayes starting than others (for reasons exhausted and debated in the starting lineup thread), doesn't want him to play more than the 22 minutes he averaged last year. I also have never tried to argue he is even a medicore starter for many NBA teams (though I still think Alston + Hayes + pick for Haslem might have been a good move for Mia--that is one team like our where Hayes would really complement the existant front line). Houston and Miami are not like most teams and has different needs than most teams. Just remeber Kurt Rambis got titles and Marc Ivaroni got one or close and they wouldn;t have played much for anyone else, it was all about having a lunchpail guy to complement their superstars. The bottom line is 2mil is well below the typical salary for a capable back-up veteran PF, and Hayes is no worse than that.
ditto. I would also like to add that I don't even agree with the idea that he's not a jumper. How does a guy who is 6'5" or so grab so many rebounds if he's not a jumper? Yao is not a jumper. Juwan is not a jumper. Hayes comes up with more seemingly impossible rebounds, saves, and tip-outs than any guy I've seen recently. You could argue that it comes from effort, anticipation, quickness, but I'll take those qualities over vertical leap as long as he keeps coming up with the ball. And even if he can't jump 40 inches off the ground, he still can jump multiple times very quickly. I get the impression that people think he's not a jumper just because he doesn't dunk. Give me Hayes over Stromile anyday.
Simple, people don't consider him a jumper because he doesn't get very far off the ground (i.e. he doesn't jump very high). Leaping ability isn't required to be a good rebounder. It's more about positioning, desire and anticipation. Jeff Ruland, Charles Oakley, Wes Unseld and Bill Lambier were all great earth bound rebounders. Hayes boxes people out and just out hustles people for rebounds.
And I can't think of a game where Hayes was a defensive stopper (disclaimer I am not considering taking charges on weakside help...I am talking you go hold player X and stop him). To me he is not a "good" defender. You can stick good defenders on folks for containment. I think our definitions for "good" are different. See above Ryan Bowen was also in the league too, right? I think he can contribute, as a bench player to bring some energy and hustle in spurts. I don't think he should be starting for any contending team.
Your definition of good defender is limited. Ultimately, the measure that matters when it comes to defense is how much better the team defends when a player is on the floor. Team defense is too often overlooked by fans. We've consistently been a better defensive team with Chuck in the game. Actually, it's amazing how consistent that trend has been since he's been with the team, going back to the second half of the 05/06 season.
