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Harden disinterested and at half court when Chris ran the offense

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by LosPollosHermanos, May 25, 2019.

  1. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    Yes most of us have played full court pick up games and most of us would probably agree that the most winded parts of the game are right after you run around chasing an off ball player on defense or running on transition. Harden does neither.
     
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  2. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    Fair enough.

    Still, Harden is not selfish. He has been the decision maker through which one of the most potent offenses in the NBA passes through for a few seasons now. He has not had one of the most talented supporting casts in the NBA. He is overachieving.
     
  3. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    No, those are not the most winded parts.

    The most winded part is when you're playing against 2 people roughly as good as you while you're playing with a guy who can't do **** so you have to create every single point. That's harder.
     
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  4. jordnnnn

    jordnnnn Member

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    I have never claimed he walks on water. And looking at those stats only proves what is the main gripe I always have with your complaints. You said our late clock shooting hurts us and insinuate that we do it sooo much more than everyone else. Reality we score “late”;in the shot clock at a rate that would make us the most efficient offense in the league if we could maintain it throughout the entire shot clock. And we don’t take that many more shots late than teams who take the absolute least amount of late in the clock shots that you claimed were bad.

    The time of possession stats I pulled were not meant to tell anyone that Harden doesn’t, X number of times per game, dribble the air out of the ball for a very long time and force us in a tougher late in the clock shot. Or to say that X number of times he doesn’t slowly walk it passed half court.

    I’m trying to open peoples eyes to the reality that the , X number of times, is not nearly as much as they believe it to be. Because statistically it can’t be possible. And then when you factor in there are plenty of successful outcomes in those scenarios, how big of a problem is this? What if we compared how often Harden does it to other guys like Lebron, Durant, Kawhi? Impossible that those guys never do it.

    Confirmation bias is a very real thing. It’s a play you and plenty of others absolutely hate, so when it happens, you are immediately triggered and you remember it.

    Same when I cite our actual number of isolation plays we run. Your average complainer would have you believe 85% of our offense is isolation. Reality it’s like 22% of what we do.

    Your average complainer says Harden never lets Paul control the ball. Reality only 7 players in the league control the ball more than he does.

    You get complaints that Harden needs to drive it more. Reality is this year no one took it to the basket more than he did. He can’t do it every single play.

    I don’t claim Harden to be above criticism nor do I believe he is perfect. I like the criticisms to be based in reality.

    I believe he has absolutely been good enough, that if given equal talent around him would be plenty to win it all.

    And it gets extremely tiring for people to take the result of not beating GS and retrofitting it as the can’t be wrong argument that player X, or coach X or strategy X is for sure wrong and will never work. Especially when stats(facts) can point to why that isn’t the case.
     
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  5. Jontro

    Jontro Member

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    no, what's harder is you being well beyond 30s and guarding/playing against young horse legs that's 20 years old, while also having forgotten to stretch prior to the game.
     
  6. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    True story bro
     
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  7. T for 3

    T for 3 Member

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    My point on the load management thing is that I am not going to listen to a guy talk about how load management is stupid, and then give that same guy a break because he was tired when it mattered most. MVP's are based purely on reg season numbers. Harden is the best at putting up jaw dropping reg season numbers, so it doesn't surprise me that he gets a lot of votes. It's rather meaningless to me, however. I don't think anyone denies that harden can go win a ring being the second or third best guy. If he wants to do that, more power to him.
     
  8. Gorilladunks

    Gorilladunks Member

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    When they said cp3 was going 4 on 5 because of harden that is incorrect. Harden was drawing out a defender near him. It was 4 on 4.
     
  9. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    So my understanding is that your problem is that James Harden doesn't believe in the load management?
     
  10. T for 3

    T for 3 Member

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    It would be my only problem if I actually agreed that he was super exhausted, and he works harder than anyone in the league etc. I don't. But yes I have a problem with his stance on load management, considering fatigue is what is often used to bail him out.
     
  11. mastan

    mastan Member

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    I think MDA lets Harden have all the say because he knows that if he messes up with him he'll get fired like Mchale...simple as that. So no wonder MDA changed his style of offense to a ISO style that harden prefers.
     
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  12. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    Ok so you don't believe he's fatigued. The fact that Harden doesn't say it is just an irritant for you.

    League leader in minutes over 5 seasons.
    League leader in getting fouled over 5 seasons.
    League leader in total points over 5 seasons.
    Historic leader in taking and making contested shots.

    Can't be exhausted because he does not give 100% when he's off the ball, like a cramping Lebron James, like Durant who snapped like a twig from the shots/minutes, like Curry who was injury prone when he had to do the same.

    How can I take this argument seriously?
     
  13. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    You're right. The media must have made him unanimous All NBA and candidate for multiple MVP's because their memory gets reset at the beginning of every season.

    Hell if he were on the market, would other GM's even give him the max? The numbers are all fake anyway.
     
  14. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Contributing Member

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    The Rockets cannot win against Warriors because Curry is more talented than Harden
     
  15. T for 3

    T for 3 Member

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    Of course he gets fatigued, where I disagree is that its at some level way above all the other top players. OK, I'll give you the minutes, but are you really going to tout:

    1.leading in fouls (many, many, of the gimmicky variety)

    2. leading in points (because he dominates the ball and shoots way more than anyone on the team) (aside from in fourth quarters of pivotal games against gs ;))

    3. contested shots (dribble, dribble, dribble, stepback)

    as reasons why he is the most tired player in the league?? and if he did ANY more he would surely cramp or blow a hammy.

    I don't agree.
     
  16. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Contributing Member

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    Harden does have a ton of help. So did Ewing, Barkley and Malone. They aren't some of the best non championship teams in history because of one guy.

    They just ran into a better star on the other side (Jordan or hakeem).

    Same thing now, harden is running into a better player in Curry. Sure we can add more talent, but talent is scarce. One thing we can 100% do is have harden work on some fixable flaws.

    Also, all this stuff about the rockets would be champs except for the stacked warriors is nonsense because they can't beat the warriors without Durant anyway. They probably can't beat the bucks or raptors this year.

    And there are often dynasties in many decades. Are teams from the 90s complaining that they had to run into Jordan or Hakeem to win a chip? Do teams in the 2000s call themselves de facto champions because they could have won it all if not for unprecedented teams like Shaq-Kobe Lakers or duncan-pop spurs?

    At the end of the day in the nba you win with stars. Harden needs to play like one in the playoffs
     
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  17. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    So you agree the minutes are insane. The volume of the shot attempts multiplied by the degree of difficulty is insane. In your fantasy, many of his explosions are negated because they don't foul him hard (like who??? lol).

    Still, you don't agree.

    No worries. Thanks for the chat.
     
  18. T for 3

    T for 3 Member

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    What I don't agree with is how great you think harden is. Like he is some all-time great who is just one good player away from showing everyone the truth. Homerism, delusion, denial. He is a great player. But nowhere near as great as you make him out to be.
     
  19. Jontro

    Jontro Member

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    incorrect. it's because klay is more talented than both and his all nba team snub is a crime against humanity.
     
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  20. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    I've stated my case. Harden has won 5 of 13 games against Durant's Warriors. The rest of the NBA combined have won 5 against them, including a Durant-less sweep of the Blazers. No one has ever defeated Durant's Warriors in a series. No one has won more with less.

    He's not an All time great of course. That's just the only strawman you can debate I think. Which is ironically indicative of how good he must be.

    I'm not going to mirror you by just calling your arguments names and not backing them up with anything. You want to see delusional denial? Look back at your last few posts which have 0 to back them up. Just: it's homerism. i don't think so. you're in denial. etc.

    Put it on the table. Let's hear your argument for once. Show me Curry's title without a DPOY, an elite secondary scorer and a Finals MVP. Show me Durant's title without all those guys and Curry. Show me Lebron's title without 2 guys who were universally considered max players on the open market PLUS paying whatever it takes to keep bit part players like Thompson, Dellavedova, JR Smith, etc (oh and he didn't even beat Durant's Warriors).

    I'll even ignore that this is the 2nd time you move the goalposts.

    Show me.
     

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