Please don't compare a NCAA Player of the Year's breakout season to a No name's breakout season. What does Marc Jackson offer? He's a center that put up average numbers for a horrible team that had no shooting. All the Rockets need is cheap labor at the C position. I'd rather take a chance on a cheap "CBA" guy like Axel Dench than pay any decent amount of cash to a guy that only played 48 games b/c of a groin injury. There isn't a center out there in the market that I'd be willing to pay more than 3-4 million, so I say just load up on the cheap hardworking centers and let them use their 6 fouls a game. ------------------ President of the CC.net Realist Club, everyone needs a dose of reality once in a while...
He's a center that put up average numbers for a horrible team that had no shooting. Jackson averaged approximately 16 points and 10 rebounds while starting. If those numbers are average for a young center in his first season in the league, your standards are way too high. ------------------ Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more! The Mo Taylor Fan Site
And the misinformation spreads. Michael Olowokandi. Keon Clark. Raef Lafrentz. (Vince Carter, Paul Pierce, Antawn Jamison). What do they have in common? They are restricted free agents, not team options. Very big difference. So, if you're Denver, and you're Stan Kroenke (owner), are you going to spend 8 million a year, some 6 year 60 mill contract or whatever, on Raef Lafrentz when he doesn't want to be there, the coach doesn't want him there, and the team is losing? And you've just spent a ton of money to keep your hockey team together, which is winning? And before you say sign and trade, they aren't always effective, unless a team has cap space. If they were, CWebb would probably be in NY or Indiana by now. If Raef signs for starting at 8 mill, Denver would have to take back 8 mill from a team over the cap. Most likely they'll offer overpriced players of the Christian Laettner variety. In a hypothetical scenario, if the Rockets were to say "we're about to sign Raef to an 8 mill offer sheet, if you want to talk sign and trade, we're up for it, how's Kenny Thomas and a first rounder" the Nuggets would jump at it a la the Orlando-Toronto TMac for a conditional #1 deal. Teams don't like to keep players that don't want to play there around. I have a big problem committing over 40 million dollars to a guy who was injured MORE THAN HAKEEM and put up decent numbers on a bad team. Cato was a very different scenario for a couple of reasons. #1.) We were expecting Hakeem and Barkley to be healthy, and Cato was to be the big man off the bench. #2.) It was defense from the seemingly likely possibility of Cato putting up monster numbers off the bench, and the fact that Chicago had a large interest, and would have FA $$. Cat- Come on, don't compare Jamison and Jackson. Jamison was a top 5 pick, so everyone knew he was fully capable of doing that. Jackson is a guy who came from Europe out of obscurity. Jamison averaging 25-9 playing all 82 games this past season didn't hurt. Look at Jackson's stats. Specifically FG%. His first big month Decemeber, he averaged 15.3-7.9 on 53.8% shooting. Then January, he put up 17.2-9.8 on 49.1% shooting.Then to February, 13.7-10.6 on 39.4%. Finally, in March, 14.3-7 on an iceberg like 33.3% shooting. Would've been interesting to see him finish the season, but those are definite signs of Euro/CBA burnout that afflicted Adrian Griffin and Stephen Jackson before him. The blocked shots make a huge difference-Griffin will in all likelihood be used as a weakside shot blocker. Mo Taylor is an average defender (he does his job fine). A true shot blocker in the middle like Lafrentz, or what Cato was supposed to become allows Steve/Cat to gamble more on defense, without having to worry as much about being burned. ------------------ "I always thought Hakeem was the better offensive player and DRob the better defender." Spurever Shaq would probably agree.
His rebounds are inflated. First his team leads the league in FG attempts, the reason for that is they can't shoot to save their lives. Higher FG attempts means higher chance for rebounds. Their team is also 21st in the league in giving up FG attempts. Golden St. on average attempts 87.5 shots/game, 1st in the league, they shoot a very depressing 40.9% from the field. They also allow 82.2 shots a game. If my math is correct, that means that the Warriors games involve the highest amount of FG attempts in the league. Higher # of FG attempts = Higher # of possible rebounds Scoring 16 points for a horrible team does nothing for me. I'm sure the shots are a lot easier to hit when the games never matter. He's not a bad center, he's just not worth the risk in my eyes. He won't score 16 points for us, and he won't see as many bricks with us either. This last season was the perfect season for him to inflate his stats b/c he played for a bad team that couldn't shoot, and the best he could show was 16 and 10? No thanks ------------------ President of the CC.net Realist Club, everyone needs a dose of reality once in a while...
can we copy what Toronto did with Oak? waive Hakeem, get his monster projected salary off our books, and resign him (and Mo T et al) as a FA? Get a little power back from Fagen/Hakeem for the Rockets. I don't want teh ROX to screw Hakeem & low-ball him. Like wise, I don't think the man should ransom the organisation. 2 years $13 mil (including signing bonus & incentives) is a huge amount of money (more than most business will make/turnover) and a "fair" amount too (to me, not to an agent/Fegan). On the moral side, this would be about the same as Cato makes. ------------------ "Hakeem gets a 3 with the final shot" - my second favorite moment of 95 finals
Nike, you could be right, but I still think Denver tries to get value for him, rather than just letting him walk. If he has a solid season next year, he will have a lot of value. Good big men are scarce. Cap space of itself is not an asset if there isn't quality to use it on. I think it is safe to say Webber doesn't want to play in Sacremento for whatever reasons. However, if the Kings loose him, I think they will try to get something in return. Think of all the cap space they will save by just letting him walk. You only gain by letting someone like Walt or Cato or Big Country walk, not by letting someone of value walk, which I think LaFrentz will have with another good year. ------------------
Thanks for picking up that mistake NIKE. I just saw the cute color on realgm's site and didn't realize that it was just a qualifying offer. BTW, if I'm a team owner and one of my lottery picks from a few years ago has turned into something nice, what do I do? I let him go for nothing? I mean hell, that's what all of the Houston fans want me to do! Maybe Nugzfan can come in and sooth everyone's little dreams. Maybe he can dig up that link to the Denver paper that I read a few months ago that said something about the Nuggets wanting to get something done later this summer, but LaFrentz too preoccupied w/ his wedding to be too concerned about it, but "hoping to get too it later(paraphrase)". Obviously Raef doesn't play for the Rockets right now. It's a poor decision to risk loosing Dream for two above average years for a conversation that might happen next summer. Remember, there is a whole season to play between now and then right?
He would get those same rebounding numbers for us. Remember, he has Antawn Jamison alongside him to deflate, who gets 9-10 rebounds per game. We have Mo Taylor, who gets between 5-7 and would inflate Jackson's numbers. It works both ways. Look at some of the top rebounders in the game: Kevin Garnett has no other big man rebounder on that team. Marcus Camby has Larry Johnson alongside him. Jermaine O'Neal has Sam Perkins alongside him. Are their rebounds inflated? You could make a statistical case for that too, because their starting frontcourt mates are well below average in rebounding, so that leaves more to them. Scoring 16 points for a horrible team does nothing for me. I'm sure the shots are a lot easier to hit when the games never matter. What's the difference between that and Mo Taylor last summer? Mo scored 16 points for a horrible team, and the games never mattered. I'd say he's a pretty damn good scorer for us, despite only putting up 17 per game as a Clipper. This last season was the perfect season for him to inflate his stats b/c he played for a bad team that couldn't shoot, and the best he could show was 16 and 10? No thanks So are you penelizing him for not being selfish? He could've done better if he went out of the system, was more aggressive, etc. But he chose to stay within the team concept, and no matter what team, if you can play center in the NBA and get 16 points and 10 rebounds, those are good numbers. ------------------ Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more! The Mo Taylor Fan Site
We don't need a Center for his offense. We should have 3 scorers with Taylor, Mobley, and Francis. We don't need anymore scorers. So the only value Jackson offers is his rebounding, that's it, rebounding. We should just go after some scrub that wants a break in this league and let him rebound. We need a Chucky Brown in a center's body. Last time I checked, those guys are supposed to be cheap, they're not supposed to be paid $5 million. The only type of center I'd be willing to pay extra cash would be the kind of center that blocks shots. We can just find an undersized center that rebounds in a developmental league. ------------------ President of the CC.net Realist Club, everyone needs a dose of reality once in a while...
I'd be more than happy to have Chucky back in the pajamas! ------------------ President of the CC.net Realist Club, everyone needs a dose of reality once in a while...
What Lafrentz does better than Jackson: Shoots better with more range, rebounds better (he does have McDyess beside him), blocks more shots, plays better D (jackson isn't a good defender), and is has played more games successfully. What Jackson does better: (this spot left intentionally blank). Lafrentz wants out of Denver. Issell doesn't want to keep him. They're going to want something... but Nike's suggestion of KT and a 1st rounder sounds just about right to me. Jackson, *at best*, is a gamble. With Lafrentz, you're certain you're getting the real thing... for about 8 million, I'd guess. That would give Houston an above league average player (assuming Griff works out) in every single position on the team. You don't need to add anything else after that, so you don't have to worry about anything except the luxury tax. Yummy. ------------------ Clutchcity.net... source for all your Rockets, Astros, political, music, humor, and Gordita news.
Have you ever heard of spacing the floor? Creating double teams in the post? A center with no offense isn't the way we need to go. We'll have enough problems creating isolation opportunities because of the zone. Getting a center with no offense would make them that much worse, because everyone can completely double off them and onto the man trying to create. When's the last time a team made it deep into the playoffs with a defensive center with no offense? Ervin Johnson and Dikembe Mutombo are relatively close, but Mutombo has some moves in the post, and Johnson has developed a good 15 footer. The Rockets have playmakers, and they surround them with shooters/scorers who can give the playmakers a chance to create without drawing constant double and triple teams. Marc Jackson would be a perfect compliment to our offense, as he can space the floor with outside shooting and draw double teams with his presence down low. Just because you're good at something (scoring) doesn't mean you can't get better. To discount a player's offense as a potential benefit on this team because of Francis, Mobley, and Taylor is just silly. ------------------ Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more! The Mo Taylor Fan Site
Is it just me or has this thread evaporated into never never land? You guys are debating the logistics of signing someone next summer and using that as a reason to potentially lose a center that is better than any other options the Rockets have right now... NOW... for this season. I know wannabe GMs love to occassionally step back and think about the 'long term goals', but seriously... sacrifice an entire season just to have a very remote chance at picking someone up next season? Are you ****ing serious? That, in all honesty, is the stupidest thing I've ever read on this bbs. Maybe we should reexamine if and when Mobley has an option in the later part of his contract. I hear that 2005 is a good FA summer. So, let's summarize that again: There is one decent FA center for next year. The Rockets might be able to get him to visit Houston... or he might extend his contract this year with the Nuggets. Maybe we should abandon the 2001-2002 season. What do you guys think? Maybe the Rockets should just phone this one in. This all based on the rumor that LaFrentz and Issel don't get along. NIKE, I'll tell Carroll your idea this Friday.
Haven, If Denver decides to deal Lafrentz, I can almost guarantee they could find better offers than Kenny Thomas and a 1st rounder. Plus, with Jackson similar to Lafrentz in a number of areas (outside shot, interior game, rebounding), I'm sure Denver would be more than willing to take him in a sign and trade, if it turns out the Rockets can get Raef Lafrentz and he is the missing piece. Achebe, I agree 100%. ------------------ Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more! The Mo Taylor Fan Site [This message has been edited by The Cat (edited July 17, 2001).]
Well I guess it's time to bring back some of my research from a previous post. When was the last time a team went far with a center that didn't block shots? The best teams in this league have a shotblocking center. LA - Shaq (2.76 blocks/game) San Antonio - Robinson (2.46) Philly - Mutombo (3.13) Milwakee - Johnson (2.06) Dallas - Bradley (3.00) Charlotte - Campbell (1.79) Indiana - O'neal (2.81) Miami - Mourning (2.38) NY - Camby (2.16) Toronto - A. Davis (1.94) The only teams that didn't have a center with at least 1.1 blocks/game that made the playoffs were Portland, Phoenix, Utah, Sacramento, Orlando, and Minnesota. The only team to make it out of the 1st round of that group was Sacramento, they beat Phoenix, who also had no shotblocking center. Marc Jackson averages .5 block/game Also I should ask you if you ever heard of "cutting to the basket" This is how Cato made his living last season, his man left him and he went to the basket for a dunk. The only problem was the dude had hands of stone, if we sign a little cba type guy that has nice hands (yes they do exist), then we'll be fine. Please tell me more about this "spacing the floor" thing... ------------------ President of the CC.net Realist Club, everyone needs a dose of reality once in a while... [This message has been edited by Pete Rose Mobster (edited July 17, 2001).]
You guys aren't posting enough. If oeilpere's thread doesn't eclipse rockHead's by this evening, he will never post again. Actually unless they're shooting earlier in the clock, higher fg attempts don't mean "higher chance for rebounds". Poor shooting means a "higher chance for offensive rebounds", but you didn't exactly argue that. I would have, if I were you, Marc Jackson gets 2.5 offensive boards per game. I think it was Bill Russell that said "if we outrebound the other team, we'll win the game". Rebounds give you a higher opportunity to shoot. Shooting doesn't necessarily give you a higher opportunity to rebound. Missing gives you a higher opportunity to offensively rebound. Actually, it's the other way around, but I already said that. ------------------ Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen...
On average, there is a total of 91 rebounds in a Warriors game. That's the highest total in the league. That means Marc Jackson has more opportunities to pull down a rebound than someone on a team that sees 80 rebounds a game. Also our team sucked at rebounding back when we won our championships, so I don't even think rebounding is that important. This makes Marc Jackson even that more useless since he can't block shots. Give me shotblocker, or give me someone cheap! ------------------ President of the CC.net Realist Club, everyone needs a dose of reality once in a while... [This message has been edited by Pete Rose Mobster (edited July 17, 2001).]
Last time I checked, those teams didn't have someone with the shotblocking ability of Eddie Griffin on their team either. It's the element of shotblocking that matters, not where it comes from. It normally does come from centers, because they are the biggest players on the court. It doesn't have to though. P.S. If there are CBA centers who can rebound 10 a game on the NBA level, block shots, cut to the basket, and have good hands, they would be in the NBA. Those type players don't grow on trees. ------------------ Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more! The Mo Taylor Fan Site
Perhaps my memory is fuzzy as to how this works, but I thought that rebounds came from missed shots. When you shoot, one of two things can happen, you make it or you miss it. The more times you shoot, the more times you miss. The more times your opponents shoot, the more times your opponents miss. The more both teams miss, the more rebounds are available. Oh, and one last thing. The Rockets grabbed 50.2% of available rebounds last year. That's above average. ------------------ It was the time of the preacher, in the year of '01 Now the preachin' is over, and the lessons begun . . .
