i understand stats are irrelevant in the face of easier-to-quantify intangibles, but... well, actually, they're not. hiding behind intangibles is the easy way out of actually having to prove and/or refute the statistics. if i've made any up, feel free to call me on it; if i've unfairly distorted them, again, call me on it. more often than not, unfortunately, they're just swept aside as if they don't exist; as if travis henry isn't outrushing the texans by his lonesome; as if the titan defense hasn't become exceptionally opportunistic of late... the titan streak is certifiably, unequivocally due to vince young, period, end of story, let's get back to bashing david carr... it's hero worship run amuck, and statistics allow ALL OF US to gain a better perspective on what's really happening... the reality is that vince young has been the benefactor of things coming together for the titans, and the titans have been the benefactor of vy getting things together as a rookie qb. they're mutually exclusive. to assign one more significance than the other (especially based on something imaginary like "intangibles") is, i'm sorry, disingenuous.
Let's see ... the Texans forced 2 turnovers to Tennessee's 0; Ron Dayne matches Henry in rushing yards and TDs; the defenses had the same number of sacks; and the Texans still ... lost.
i'm not saying VY is winning these games all by himself. clearly his defense has gotten better. BUT MAKE NO MISTAKE RIC....VY IS A HUGE REASON WHY THE TITANS ARE HAVING SUCCESS RIGHT NOW. you can spin it anyway you wish. BUT AS A ROOKIE...VY IS LEADING HIS TEAM...AND HE'S DOING SO QUITE WELL. i think you're overstating travis henry. last week, henry outrushed VY by a grand total of 2 yards. despite carrying the ball nearly 3x as many times. against the Giants Henry rushed for a whopping 27 yards. Henry has done a good job...and yeah, he's better than what the Texans have. but in case you haven't been watching, the texans running game has been going better too. and it hasn't meant crap for them. they were able to run effectively last week against the titans. they were able to run effectively against the raiders, despite having zero passing game.
Strange how, everywhere he goes, Vince is the benefactor of good luck. And how all his teammates and coaches and everyone around him are always just so clueless that they credit him for changing a team's attitude and providing all that mythical leadership that apparently doesn't exist. He must be the single luckiest person in the history of the world.
i've said absolutely none of that. had anyone brought that up (they haven't), i would have said their QB was kerry collins; travis henry was hurt; and their defense hadn't come together yet. now, to flip it back - if i objectively list many reasons in addition to vy for the titans' turnaround, i'm instantly met with the standard issue "intangibles" response. so, really, who's ducking who? i've never said a single disparaging word about vince young. i just don't spend 18 hours a day dreaming of what his balls might taste like, and for that, i'm being crucified. again, as i offered max, go read any post-WS article about tough, scrappy little davey eckstein to see what's it like when stats and facts and scary things like that that a gosh-darn computer spits out are thrown to the wayside in an attempt to overinflate an individual's contributions and worth. well, it is a texan site, so, probably... but i certainly didn't write it. what's your point? and therefore, i suppose, incapable of being a part of their resurgence...?
AND MAX, MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT, NOWHERE HAVE I DISCOUNTED VINCE YOUNG'S CONTRIBUTIONS AS A QB, ON THE FOOTBALL FIELD. in fact, in another thread, i stated that more and more, i'm reversing field on young. i had two questions about him last april: could ALL of his skills translate to the nfl; can he stay healthy running as much as he likely will. the short-term answers to both seem to be yes; if they're also the long-term answers, i've never underestimated vy's ceiling. i've always compared him to an in-his-prime randall cunningham, and considering RC is the most dynamic QB of my lifetime, that's high praise. so, with that out of the way, again, can we now objectively discuss vy, david carr, the titans and the texans, or.....? i've listed this before, but here we go again: he gained 321 yards rushing in those two games (outgaining vy's passing and rushing totals) - that's a 2,500-yard pace, MM. those two games alone would place him third among texan backs; less than 150 yards away from the leader. in two games, max. TWO. i think you're understating how invaluable he was in those two games. the titans would be 4-9 were it not for travis henry. yeah, and max, the texans played one of their better games sunday - funny how that works, isn't it? the texans' leading rusher has surpassed 62.5 yards (the averaging per game needed to cross 1,000) exactly 6 times this year; the texans are 3-3 in those games, with two of the losses coming on a last second TD against the bills and a 39-yard run in OT against the titans. they're averaging 21 points in those 6 games; 13 in the other 7. i know, i know - arggggh! stats, scary.... major, your balls are lookin for you - they're in this thread here: http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=121639
It's Wednesday morning here in Houston and I still think VY should have been drafted #1 by the Houston Texans. I thought it this time last year and my opinion hasn't changed. And here I am 3 days after the 'game' and I still feel like we just lost out on the one player who could have turned the team around and made us a winner. I was an Oiler season ticket holder (It has become impossible for me to own Texan tickets) and I started back when the Oilers came here. I am a Texan fan and I will always be one, and I will always support my team. But BECAUSE I am a loyal fan, I am more frustrated than I have ever been at missing up the #1 overall pick. I want them to win soooo badly and it seemed (at least to me) soooo obvious that they had one of those once in a lifetime opportunities. VY may turn out to be a flop, fine; but that will shock me. DC may lead us to the playoffs next season, but that will shock me even more. I will get over this (at least that is what I believe) But as of now I have lost confidence in DC and the sooner we make a change the better. I still don't see what makes him better than Rosenfel and that about says it all for how much confidence I have in DC. I don't know how to measure leadership. There is only one measurement I really care about for my team- wins and losses.
Then why is the most important stat - Wins and Losses - never mentioned? Everyone loves to throw out rushing, completion percentage etc but fails to mention wins. Thats the only damn thing that matters
Ric -- i don't think you can objectively talk about the texans, at all. i can't objectively talk about VY. so let's not pretend either one of us is being objective. you wish to keep defending david carr. fine. i've seen enough. we've gone round and round and you've done nothing to convince me that david carr isn't part of his own problem. i've explained over and over again that i know DC isn't the only problem on the Texans...but he is A PROBLEM. i guess you disagree with that...truly, i don't even know.
I'm over it. I'm moving forward, not looking back. At some point, you have to move on. I'm more interested in how we get better from here on out, not how we could have gotten better 6 months ago.
oh, sure i can. does this sound like a blind homer?: "(Gary Kubiak)’s also having to reconstruct an entire NFL roster from scratch thanks to four years of mind-numbingly horrible decisions by the D.C. con man and his merry staff of morons who managed to turn a litany of NFL-mandated advantages into a 3,000-pound albatross the franchise must now wear around its neck." i wrote that after week one, max. i do not apologize for the houston texans; i also don't view them with my heart. no, i don't disagree; in fact, i've agreed he's A problem; taken offense to posts that suggest he is THE problem, or the number of posts about him in favor of posts about ANY OTHER problem. my official stance is that, after a productive first half, he's - for whatever reason - regressed again. i don't know why. i know they lack a running game; i know the OL is terrible; i know they lack playmakers on both sides of the ball... to me, carr is not a problem, but he's not part of the solution, either. i've always maintined his ceiling was troy aikman - a game manager who needed others to make big plays. i don't, unlike a lot people, view that as a negative. again, aikman went to six pro bowls, won three super bowls and is in the hall of fame yet threw 15 or more TDs 4 times in 12-year career. but, in light of what's happened this year; the mistake the texans made with the draft; the lack of urgency kubiak took with the running game and OL... the deck, unfortunately, was stacked against carr, and it's likely time to move on. i feel bad for the guy... i hope he lands somewhere more stable, but i can see what's pretty obvious and a change is needed. and that addresses exactly one of 20 problems with this team....
sorry; i seemingly contradicted myself. what i mean is that, from game-to-game, carr has been a problem (at tennessee), but overall, i think a team can win with carr... so long as the team around him is good.
I'm getting there... I think if Rosenfel was starting at QB I would be all again. It's not Carr's fault, I even like his arm strength and toughness. The pain comes from knowing that the leadership of the franchise I support couldn't see that we needed 'you know who' and that Carr wasn't the answer. I know I am just a fan but Carr's problems have been obvious to me since the start of the 2005 season. It was after watching his playmaking ability and how many times he led the team to a victory on his own play; that I began to see him not having it. Even in his good season 2004, I felt he was not progressing as a QB. I knew he was under alot of pressure in the pocket, but I saw how he handled it and I saw that he was causing alot of the problem by his own struggles. The thing that bothers me more than anything is that I am afraid Kubiak and McNair will stay the course one more season with Carr. That would be crushing to the progress of this franchise. I am not a good enough talent evaluator to see a great QB coming out this next draft. There may be one there???? I don't like picking of Jake Plummers etc. again I think those are big guesses. So I hope Kubiak is the QB genius and we can chalk Carr up to just one big mistake on Kubiaks part and get back to moving this franchise forward. If the franchise moves forward I think I will be moving on with it; if it doesn't I will always support them, with this pain I am still feeling.
i agree with that. if a team can carry him, he can win. he's better than dilfer, i think. but on this team?? not a chance. and this is the team we have. with all its warts and shortcomings, just as you said. upgrade that position and you will notice a difference, i think. beyond that, i think change is needed for the sake of change. for the fans and for the team.
I think you have been pretty fair in your responses and I am not opposed to us winning with Carr.... so long as we win. I just can't agree with you that this team will make the playoffs with Carr. We better get a really strong defense built quickly. I guess if we can build a strong enough defense and a strong enough running game in the next 2 seasons I could wait for 3 more years for us to be a playoff contender. I also realize we could actually have a great draft next season and possibly contend for the playoffs WITH Carr; that's how close so many games are. But I really am totally convinced that Carr will never take us to the Super Bowl. For that one reason- I want to abandon Carr ASAP. I want to see the Texans in the Super Bowl in my lifetime, I am 53 yrs old.
Hypothetically speaking, if Carr and Young were to switch teams, would Carr then be winning games and Young be losing games?
i agree with every word of this. hugs? physically, he's certainly better than dilfer. he's a tough SOB; has a terrific arm and.... did i mention he's tough? i think the previous regime screwed him; i'm not excusing him; just stating my opinion. i think kubiak tried; i think he initially got soem results, but i think carr is SO used to things breaking down that he retreats at the first sign of it. and in that regard, i'll agree young brings something different to the table - whatever the reason, he's always won; i can see where confidence and attitude can have an effect on a team, though i stop there - he can't make players better. sorry. honestly, the texans passing on young is probably the best thing ever for him. fisher is THE right coach for him; tennessee has some parts in place already... not sure vy would translate with the texans. but i wouldn't rule it out, either.
keep something in mind: two games separate the two teams... and the texans have lost twice on the final play of the game. it's not like the titans are 9-4. but, anyway - it's an interesting question, but one i can't honestly answer. i'll say this: the difference in the two teams right now is this: if young is just completely off his game (and he has been - he's a rookie), the titans have shown they have players who can step into the void: henry, jones... the texans don't have those guys. so the question, i guess, is would the texans be able to overcome vy throwing for 108 yards and a pick, and my gut response is no.
A question you "honestly can't answer" or a question you honestly don't want to answer? Prior to Vince entering the starting qb role, the Titans were arguably the worst team in football along with the Raiders, as discussed by many talking heads.
