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The Harden hate has to stop

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by swedish-olajuwon, Sep 11, 2020.

  1. HP3

    HP3 Member

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    The fact is there is no better way to use him. You bring in another coach and the same problems will arise. You can use Harden off ball or have variety(or give Westbrook the ball more LOL) but the fact is, talent wins out in the end. The fact that NBA level executives are saying Rondo is better than him is the saddest thing in the world.

    You guys are hoping for something that wont happen. We arent winning a championship with him on the roster as the second best plater. He isnt good enough.

    Its time to trade them both and rebuild, as hard as it sounds.
     
  2. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    Russ has shot bad his entire career and somehow has had a 1st ballot HOF career. You're going to have to figure out why/how that is...
     
  3. HP3

    HP3 Member

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    I defend Harden when he doesnt deserve the criticism when everyone ***** on him. I've said many times that Harden has had problems in the clutch. Im SAYING TO TRADE HIM. I've criticized him for getting Westbrook here. Im not gonna criticize him this playoffs because ITS HIS BEST POST SEASON PERFORMANCE. Like okay congrats Harden didnt play as well he could have in game 7 but he woudlnt even be close to the number one issue we are discussing if we had lost to OKC. Holy crap. If yalll really think Im this James Harden groupie, you are mistaken, Im evaluating who had the best performances here and that was Harden....through out our whole playoffs. Like this is a stupid argument you were trying to have with me.

    He had a great game. But he was not the best player for OKC, that was Chris Paul who set him up for those looks and had triple double in a close game 7 loss. Im not saying he didnt play well, he was awesome. But again did Iggy out play Lebron in the finals??? Like wtf. Harden's offensive value led to everything that happend on the court. Harden was probably our second best defender that series as well. Blaming him for a loss in game 7 fine...but that's after carrying this team for 6 games and receiving. no help on the offensive end.
     
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  4. HP3

    HP3 Member

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    Im not saying he isnt a HOF, the guy has an MVP. He used to be one of the top 10 players in the league.

    But he's also not that guy anymore. He's worthless now in terms of winning a championship, he peaked athletically and there isnt much you can get out of his game in terms of post season success. You'll run into the same problems over and over. And I doubt a coach is fixing it. Because there will always be spacing problems with him.
     
  5. Cstyle42

    Cstyle42 Member

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    Jimmy Butler showing up clutch smh
     
  6. DVauthrin

    DVauthrin Contributing Member

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    Nobody is discussing the entire Rockets-Thunder series, nor blaming Harden for it going seven games. All I originally said is that James Harden struggled in game 7 offensively, and his teammates picked up the slack by making open shots. You started arguing with me that the other Rockets didn’t carry the offense that night and have spent the last two or three pages of this thread disagreeing with me and others on this specific issue, in one specific game. You have been constantly moving the goal posts to “The Rockets would never have been in a position to win a game seven without James Harden.” Nobody disagrees with you on that, but it’s not what was being discussed. If the Rockets had lost game 7 to the Thunder because James Harden shot 4/15, blaming him for that specific loss is more than fair. People would do that if it were Kawhi Leonard, LeBron James, etc. instead of Harden. It doesn’t mean I think he played poorly in the entire series, either.

    In the past few pages, you also have repeatedly blamed Russell Westbrook for that series going six or seven games when he didn’t even play in the first four games. Russell Westbrook sucked in the playoffs, and very few people, if anyone, disagrees with you about that. But, he wasn’t the reason the Thunder series went as long as it did. However, he was a major reason the Rockets lost four straight games to the Lakers.

    Finally, why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that Luguentz Dort had the best overall game out of anyone on either team in game 7? He played outstanding defense on James Harden, holding him to 4/15 shooting and only 17 points, while he led both teams in scoring with 30 points on 10/21 from the field.

    Was Dort the best player in the series? Absolutely not. That was James Harden, and nobody is arguing otherwise. But, Dort was definitely the best player for either team in game 7. Chris Paul was a -5 in his minutes on the court while Dort was only break even (oddly enough). Dennis Schroder somehow led all players at +12 despite shooting 5-17 from the field, but nobody who watched the game would say Dennis Schroder was the best player that night.

    Again, you are trying to change the goalposts by asking if Andre Iguodala had a better series when he was named Finals MVP over LeBron James. Nobody has once said that Dort was a better player in the Thunder-Rockets series than James Harden. Just like nobody thinks Iguodala was better than LeBron in that NBA Finals.

    Finally, James Harden had an outstanding series overall against the Lakers, and he brought it when no other Rocket did in game 5. That said, his play and body language were not good in a must win game 4, and that isn’t acceptable for a superstar, much less a perennial MVP candidate. The series was lost as soon as the Rockets laid down and didn’t compete in the first half of that game.
     
    #426 DVauthrin, Sep 15, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020
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  7. HP3

    HP3 Member

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    Sure, that's fine. Just had a better look the numbers...he didnt play well enough that game, you're right. The people on this board would be ten times worse about Harden if we lose that game. He wouldnt get blamed for losing one game, he would get blame for losing the entires series. But you arent doing that so its fine. Harden was bad for the first 3 quarters of that game and had a poor game overall.
    I blame him for it going to 7 yea. Because he single handidly lost game 6 for us. He broke plays and did his own thing(and that's been reported). He was the reason it went to 7. He played within himself in game 5. And after that he sucked massive ass. Dont mistake Harden playing badly in game 7 for Westbrook playing well in game 7 either. He played almost as badly as Harden did, you can even check the numbers.

    Right Dort played well, you are correct. But okay if we arent gonna use plus minus to say James Harden was good in game 7, we arent gonna use it to say Chris Paul was bad either(or that meant Lou Dort outperformed him). Dennis Schroder actually has a case though for being the best player OKC overall that series. He had the highest net rating and we had no one who could check him. But anyways, yea Lou Dort outplayed Harden that game but he was not OKC's best player that game. It was Chris Paul. https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202009020HOU.html He had a higher TS, Offensive Rating, Defensive rating and box plus minus for that game. It was definitely Chris Paul who was better(I cant believe we traded him).

    That's fine, its an asinine comparison. I was wrong there.

    All playoff games matter. All of them. You can't blame Harden losing us that series by playing badly in game 4 when he literally played well in every other game. He was doubled every single game after the first one. And that was made possible because of Westbrook. The fact that he had the stat line that he did in that game was actually incredible. He actually performed well that game. He was still better than Westbrook that game by impact metrics LOL. And he had a better game impact wise than Lebron(better TS too). So no, I dont blame James Harden for that one bad game, especially when he didnt even perform that badly. And especially when Westbrook enabled doubles on him the WHOLE series including that game. Single game plus minus(but this reflects pretty much all the playoffs) but Harden had the highest plus minus of any of our starters in game 4 as well.
     
  8. DVauthrin

    DVauthrin Contributing Member

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    I could care less what the rest of the board thinks about what I say. I speak openly and honestly about what my eyes see during the games. Am I always right? Of course, not. But, when I’m wrong, I’ll admit it. For example, I apologize for calling you an irrational Harden lover earlier. That was wrong of me.

    You still aren’t understanding what I’m saying. Two of the three Rockets’ losses came without Westbrook playing, therefore he was not the primary reason the series went to 7 games. If the Rockets could have executed an inbounds pass and made their free throws at the end of game 3, the series goes a maximum of five games, and Westbrook likely never plays. That said, I completely agree with you that Westbrook was awful in game 6 and his poor decisions at the end of regulation were why the Rockets lost that night. Furthermore, by the advanced box score numbers, Robert Covington and Jeff Green were by far the best Rockets in game 7, and you are right that Westbrook was among the worst.

    I’m fine with ignoring the plus/minus stat. I only used it for game 7 to show how flawed it is since you kept bringing it up in defense of Harden’s performance. Also, I stand corrected that Dort was better than Chris Paul in game 7. I’m surprised Dort’s defensive rating was so low because he frustrated Harden all night. As for Schroder, I completely agree that you could make the argument that he was the Thunder’s best player in the series. That just wasn’t the case in game 7.

    You are absolutely correct that all playoff games matter. That’s why it frustrates me to no end that as great as James Harden is, he still has games like game 4 against the Lakers where his energy level and body language is not where it should be. Look at the heart the Nuggets have shown being down 3-1 to both the Jazz and the Clippers. The Rockets didn’t play with nearly the same heart and pride in game 4 after they fell down 2-1 against the Lakers. Is that all James Harden’s fault? Absolutely not. But, as the leader and best player on the team, he shoulders a lot of responsibility for that team effort, as does Mike D’Antoni. A team always follows the lead of its best player.

    Also, I am certainly not disagreeing with you that Westbrook played like crap against the Lakers. He was awful. Harden and the Rockets needed him to play better, and he didn’t. Westbrook was the primary reason the Rockets didn’t advance beyond the second round, and I wish the Rockets could trade him (highly unlikely with his contract and his friendship with Harden). I was not a fan of the CP3/Westbrook trade from the start.
     
    #428 DVauthrin, Sep 15, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020
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  9. HP3

    HP3 Member

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    Well in defense of Harden and pretty much every superstar out there. Sometimes you arent gonna have good games and sometimes you need your teammates to bail you out. Look at what happend to the Clippers. Kawhi just had the literal worst game of his career in game 7 and I'm pretty sure he was worse than Harden in game 4 and game 7. So it happens to even the players, people consider "clutch."
     
  10. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    We talked a bit about this before @HP3 and I'm surprised I haven't seen this video before but...



    Analytics are just flat out wrong about posting up. Think we're seeing that this post-season. Sure, not many people can do it but if you have a player that can? It can benefit your offense a ton of ways.

    I think there's a reason Harden's post-ups work so well, he can handle the ball, he can pass, has high IQ and as coach Nick said...it's silly not try it more.

    You never know in the playoffs when you need to make that adjustment after all. Not that you have to make Harden a low post player, but every now and then you need to show the Lakers a new look, see how they react to it, do some things differently.
     
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  11. HP3

    HP3 Member

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    Uhhh yea I think I remember this video. Coach Nick can have his opinion but there is a reason NBA coaches are going away from posting up.

    Analytics dont tell you anything, the numbers just are what they are. For most bigs or players in the nba the post up is not an efficient shot. They are not good at them. Layups and threes(and overall perimeter play) are just more efficient. And guards dont post up because they have more efficient options available to them. Like okay if you have Nikola Jokic or Joel Embid like yea go ahead and post up. But like I've said before they are the exception, not the norm. And even then there better plays per possession than their post ups. Jokic didnt have THAT much efficiency out of the post. He had like .96 PPP in the playoffs. But the reason Jokic is an exception is because and I mean this quite literally he's the best passing big man of all time. There is no big man in the history of the NBA who can pass like him. Posting up mostly works if you are intending to pass out of it, but there are only a few people in the league that are good it. Its very hard to pass out of the post.

    Okay so here is the thing, Dallas just had the number one offensive rating of ALL TIME. They did not need Porzingis post ups. They did not need a lot Donic post ups(they still did them on mismatch, which Im not opposed to). Porzingis wasnt good at them this year and even the number he had in New York wasnt good enough to justify doing them more. He's not even a good enough of a passer out of the post.

    Harden post up were done 4% of the time. They were ... a back up back up plan. It did not look sustainable at all. Harden dosent do it a lot and I'm sure it would have just caused more turnovers and been easier on the defense. In the future...maybe its worth trying, Im not opposed to it(but in my opinion this wont lead to consistent offense for Harden, nor does it for Westbrook because neither of them can pass well enough out of the post). Again, im not opposed to trying it next season, but Im skeptical of the results.
     
  12. harold bingo

    harold bingo Iso Only Fan
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    Analytics are not flat out wrong because analytics don't say post ups are bad. Analytics say inefficient plays are bad. MOST (but not all) players generate a very low amount of points from their post up plays. Those are the players that shouldn't do it. It's similar to midrange shots.
     
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  13. Damion Laverne

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    Harden has to rediscover what made him special in OKC.

    All of your star players have to have multiple tricks in their bag to be successful. James has reduced himself too far. Analytics is part of the problem, but the larger issue is his inflexibility (which leads to insanity [see definition]).

    He acts too much like my dad sometimes. Yes, mom (Westbrook) screws up a lot, but you (Harden) watch her do it and don't do anything about it.

    I'm just not sure James will change unless something catastrophic happens to him between now and the beginning of next year. You'd be more likely to see WB traded for Blake Griffin than Harden changing his style.
     
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  14. Clutch City1993

    Clutch City1993 Contributing Member

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    Greatest scorer in NBA history but major flaws in his approach to finishing the big game. No complaints from being a fan. He also matures at a slower pace it seems. I hope him and WB work hard to adapt to each other even more.
     
  15. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    But that is what I was saying the whole time. Carlisle, to his credit, never really said Post-ups were bad, he was sayingg their data says for Kristaps it isn't good, even then, they still do it, they still dabble in it, try it out, see what they can get with it.

    Porzingis, in the post, is worse than Harden, gets more post ups, and their offense is still great. It definitely should be tried more.

    That might be true but people think it's bad to the point that you rarely see bigs and others come into the league using it. If more people thought they were efficient, they'd teach it, instead we tell players like Giannis that he should be trying to shoot threes while he really should be working on his post game.

    I think a lot of people and that includes people in the NBA don't value it as much anymore.
     
  16. YOLO

    YOLO Member

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    #hardensfault

     
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  17. HP3

    HP3 Member

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    That's not a good thing though? Like that just shows how great their offense is in spite of that. And Kristaps averaged about threes possessions of post ups in the regular season. It's like 15% of his overall scoring frequency. Like its not a lot. Their offense is good in spite of that.

    Harden having a low sample doesnt mean he's better at posting up than Porzingus. It doest mean Harden is good at it at all. And I dont think Harden will ever as good enough of a passer out of the post for it to be viable offense. However, you'll get your wish next season. I however believe that itll be

    Posting up is more of an inherited talent tbh. Yea you can improve with training. But some guys have it there and some guys dont and those that have it are generational talents.




    GIVE WESTBROOK THE BALL MORE
     
  18. YOLO

    YOLO Member

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    so does kawhi give the ball to pg13 more? Is that how it works. asking for a friend
     
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  19. HP3

    HP3 Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  20. TMAC3

    TMAC3 Member

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    '
    Who cares? Big time stars don't shrivel up in the big moments. Harden is a loser. So much evidence to support that. No evidence to support that he is a superstar that can lead you to a title.
     

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