You are thinking about this way too mathematically, it's a good thing because it adds variety to the offense. That's it. It makes what they regularly do harder to predict. This is why people want Harden to add variety to his offense, so that defenses are not set on him doing the exact same thing over and over and over again, reading passing lanes, knowing where he'll be and where his shooters will be. I know Carlisle said they like to post him up when the situation calls for it, that's all, the variety. Oh, they have been trapping, lets get harden in the post, get a slasher, try to get an easy two pointer. Let's not do what they expect us to do, lets give them another look. IT is not in spite of it. It's the same reason people want Simmons to shoot threes, not because he'd be good at it, just to present the defender with another look. Maybe the guy bites, maybe he freezes, maybe Ben hits three of them early and it changes how the defense reacts to him.
No there wasteful plays. You only to need post up for Porzingus unless he has a serious mismatch. The Mavs are 21st in the league in post up plays ran. They have literally the greatest offense of all time. They do not need his post ups. Variety is fine, you can have the post ups at a low frequency but I guarantee you, their season isnt made or broken on Porzingis post ups. I personally think they could cut those post ups in favor of pick roll plays for Luka-Porzingis, Pick and Pop, you can even have Porzingis face up on the low block. Its not consistent though? You can have it occasionally for 2-3 plays and the defense catches on to it and its over. Its so much harder to pass out of a double team than on the perimeter. There are better plays to run though? You can have the post up for 2-3 times a game and that's it. Its not consistent offense. Yea situationally, he means maybe like 2-3 possessions a game. It doesnt mean you just throw in there to him there more than that. Its not a staple of an offense. It's barely even a throwaway play. There are better adjustments to be made. Giannis took threes and it didnt change a damn thing for him. Westbrook took 3s and it didnt change a damn thing for us. I really think they could etch out all those Porzingis post up plays and their offense would be better(except for the mis matches). You have to be good enough at it for the defense to react to it.
I don't think Giannis should be shooting threes, I don't think it is really necessary for him given how he impacts the game. Porzingis though, he can get down low in the post. Also, not only for variety reasons, but just for rep reasons. You rely way too much on the numbers for this stuff, players never get better if they never do these things in game. That's why Giannis shoots threes, he wants to get better at it, if you say to him "Well, you can't shoot them, the numbers say so, so stop." Then he never gets better at it. Using this kind of logic, Rondo doesn't shoot any 3s in that series, Lakers lose a game or two based on that alone. So that's why we don't always rely on analytics during games and making coaching decisions. Maybe one day Giannis gets better, but using analytics to tell him to stop means that day never happens. IF Giannis can start hitting 3s, well he becomes unstoppable. I don't think it'll happen (because some people just can't shoot, period.) but if it's going to happen it's going to happen because he practices his shot and actually takes a few shots in the game.
Also, about the whole post game is hard to learn and inherent... A lot of big men come into the NBA knowing little about it. Hakeem was a late bloomer as well. All you really need is footwork, vision, and a touch. Harden certainly has all of that. I don't know why people are scared of him expanding his game and becoming a better post player. Kobe and Jordan did, it worked out damn well for them.
Then the logic doesnt work. Then neither should Westbrook and neither should Ben Simmons. Giannis lost in the playoffs both years because he sucks at shooting. If he was better at posting up, he'd still be seeing the same wall he always does. He's gotta better chance of getting a better shot than being an "efficient" post up player. Not saying he shouldnt improve there...but the three ball is of much higher value to his team. He's not Jokic or Embid. He needs to improve the 3 ball because that skill because is a skill worth improving. Posting up for him is not. Teams are gonna do that to him every year. As for Porzingis, he does get down in the post. He doesnt need to do it anymore than he already does, the Mavs don't need it. And it probably wouldnt help their already amazing offense. If a dude needs a lot of reps to post up a mismatch,something is wrong.3-4 possessions a game is enough for him, its not a staple of their offense. Getting better at 3s is not the same thing at better at post ups. Giannis getting his 3 point percentage to a respectable 35% is a lot easier than him being an efficient scorer and playmaker out of the post. Being a playmaker out of the post and have it be efficient offense is very very VERY hard. Only Jokic is able to really. The math will tell you not to post ups or not to take threes(for some players) but one has a much higher return than the other one does and opens up way more for a team offense. Because in today's NBA the rules do not favor posting up. Its a different game. Those are all skills that are very hard to come by. Harden has vision...but vision out of post ups is entirely different than perimeter play. Post up passing is not something everyone has an efficient weapon. It literally might just be Jokic who can make a living out of the post....or Lebron. Different rules man...and a different game. You may see more post ups with a new coach ....but I donno it will ever be like a staple of our offense. Dantoni isnt the coach anymore...so maybe we will see more post ups by Harden. This is all just my opinion man. I could be wrong and we could win a chip doing this....I personally just dont see it.
He brought it again this year and in the playoffs. But if your second star is not going to give you star level production, then you won’t win. I wish he had a supernova series where he single handedly beats LAL, but they made sure he wouldn’t by trapping him all game long. I can’t even really blame Westbrook since he came back from covid and the quad injury. It’s just a shitty situation that comes after years of shitty situations. I doubt management will reboot though because it’s too hard to rebuild in the first place. It’s much easier to try and retool around an MVP.
There are bigs in the NBA that won championships that never develop a 3 point shot so I'm not sure what you mean by a wall. You can't really pack the paint against a low post center because it doesn't matter to them and if he's doubled then that means someone is open. It also means the low post player has the ball and his shooters are open. You generate the exact same shots you want, layups and threes, low post plays can generate the exact same shots, so there wouldn't be a wall unless the player is just posting up and no one else is moving and no one else on the team can shoot. If Giannis is going to shoot 3s though then he still has to take them. But Giannis needs a go to skill moves, every single championship player has one. It can't be "Drive past you really fast and dunk!" as we see, that doesn't work out when you're hampered or you lose athleticism, Westbrook, Dwight, etc. Either he's going to get a shot or he's going to find one go to post move, preferably with those arms, a hook. Right now, he's depending on how athletic he is It really depends on the player. For Shaq, he could NEVER learn how to shoot, no matter how much you trained him to, no matter who you sent him to, it didn't matter. It wasn't happening. And he worked a lot on it just to shoot FTs, just didn't have touch, that's a mental thing. Also, as coach nick pointed out, one isn't better than the other. If you put Hakeem in the NBA today he'd tear it to shreds. The thing is, he posts up, he's going to score, you have to double, he can pass out of that double and still generate the same shots. That's the thing, you're still getting layups and dunks, it's just the defense has to guard it differently. I do think though with shooting, a lot of the best shooters have been playing basketball for a really long time, pre-10 years of age long time. A lot of big men are introduced to basketball and still develop post games, some do so in the NBA. The main thing that changed is perimeter defense rules that make sure players can't be touched, that made it easier to rely on small guards like Curry who would have found it tougher to drive in the lane in the 90s. Before that and zone defense rules, it was just more reliable to throw it down low...and also the centers back then were no joke. You came into the lane you were getting it...nowadays the centers are...well... Jokic being the exception to it means it can still be done, but as Nick was saying, no one cares to teach it because everyone just wants to jack up threes. It's sort of like how Curry started hitting threes way outside the perimeter...then others start doing, now it's a thing players do. Like Harden's step back. Jokic is proving it still works just fine. Unlikely that the Nuggets win, for sure, but if they manage to get past the Lakers you're going to see people looking back at it and wondering if they fell too in love with spacing the floor and if they can incorporate it more into their offense.
Giannis isnt a conventional big. And this isnt the NBA of old. There hasnt been a team that had a big as their best player win a championship in quite a long time. You can definitely do that.....what do you think the Celtics did against Embid? Like you send help defense and make it hard for the big to pass out of it. How do you think we beat so many big teams this season? Like this is what I mean...there arent good player's that can efficiently pass out of the post. It is just Jokic. Not in the same manner and not with the same effectiveness. It also slows the pace down. Bigs cant efficiently pass out of it because they arent good enough(vision wise). Actually most player's cant pass out of the post efficiently because its extremely hard. Thats why Jokic is so special. Drive past you and then dunk works when you have athleticism and a respectable jumper. He doesnt need to have a post move to win a championship, you just have to hit the three at 35%....and thats it. I guess maybe as you get older...you'll need to get more skilled, but that doesnt have to be post ups. And there is no guarantee Giannis will ever be good enough to make it efficient. Yea...that''s fair....but one of those will for sure raise his chances of getting a chamionship....and the other .....err.....not by much. Shaq is a generational talent that would be effective in any era. He's was so dominant inside the pain that it did not matter. But its a new era of basketball with different rules. One is definitely better than the other for most NBA players. Yea...Hakeem is a generational talent, of course he would. Like Hakeems dont grow on trees. Hakeem was a rarity even in the 90s. And Hakeem would be doing a lot of other things besides posting up if he were in today's game. Well sure they could introduce more fundamentals for better post play...but i think a lot of it is trying to get big men to get more guard skills. Right or wrong who can say, that's just the way the league is trending towards. But I will say Hakeem did start playing in his teens which kinda further adds to my point....it takes a lot of talent to be good in the post. Well that's my point, its a different game. Guards are more efficient at creating offenses. That's how it been in the modern nba. Jokic is a huge exception that you are not gonna find anywhere else. He's a very very VERY rare breed. And even he doesnt lead a top 5 offense in the NBA. I mean...yea that's true....it's also just smarter just to take more threes? Like there is a reason teams are taking more and more threes every year, it leads to more efficient offense. Uhhh....I doubt that? Like Jokic is amazing,he's their best player but Jamal Murray is also playing out of his mind....like he scored 40 in game 7....he actually has a higher offensive rating that Jokic in the clipper's serie(although that is not to say he's a better offensive player of course not). And as I said, Jokic is the best passing big in history.
It absolutely does help. Porzingas' life would be much more difficult if he just scored from three and in the paint.
Yeah, but you don't even have to be a big to have a post game, even Coach Nick says more guards should do it. I'm saying Giannis should develop one because I believe some guys can't shoot, no matter how much they want to, it won't happen. Giannis has worked on his shooting since entering the NBA...I don't think it's going to happen. Just don't see it. Maybe he proves me wrong but a post game even late in a career can still be developed. Even if it is just one or two moves, a hook shot would be amazing for him with his length, unstoppable. Also, again, the reason 76ers low post game doesn't work is because their entire team shooting average is bad...really bad. They were shooting under 300 as a team against the Celtics so it made them easier to do that. We'll just never agree. I don't think he needs to shoot 3s to win, more than anything he needs a legit #2, secondly needs a go to skill move. If the Heat go on to win it sure won't be because Bam Adebayo is shooting 3s. As for the rest of your post I can respond in more of a summary to keep things shorter. Basically, yes, having a low post game is difficult, just like it is finding a guard that can drive at will, that's about the same amount of skill it takes, not everyone can do that. Like a handful of guys can drive at will in this league...but the difference is not just the rules but that people are forgetting how valuable a post game is. Now you said Murray has a higher rating, that's nice and all, but Jokic is the one that actually changed the Clippers. He's the one that forced them to adjust, he's the one that forced them to take their best offensive players off the court. This might not show up on the ratings but anyone watching that series saw how he changed the game. Dame said last night that Murray should expect a lot of attention, now watch tonight and this series, Murray is going to see less doubles than Harden or Dame because you can't double perimeter players if a guy is posting up. You are basically giving up layups to cutters. I think the more tools a player adds to their belt the better. Always. Even if Harden's post ups are not much to say he'd be good at it, you still need to try it, see how far it goes. Spoesltra bust out a zone yesterday which usually does not work in the NBA but lo and behold he tried it out, it worked. I don't know man, I think we should not be so stuck on numbers and math and sometimes they don't tell the full story of not only what is going on but what can be done to optimize the players. It's why the best run organizations today have guys like Riley, Ainge, Popovic, who respect analytics to be sure but they are not slaves to the numbers.
I agree with some stuff here, other stuff i dont. We'll just agree to disagree on some of the stuff here and see how everything plays out.
I love how angry all of you Harden apologists always get. Makes my day. And Harden for Tatum or Luka??? LMFAO
