Same people still dont understand that a player is told what to do. Yeah you are one of them evidently. I guarantee that if Battier was told to start taking more shots, where ever, his percentage would drop, drop way below.................. Check this out. Once we get a goto guy, and Ariza takes less shots and can put more energy into defense, his stats will start to be what they were previously. But Battiers will stay the same.
I hope you're being sarcastic because Shane is by far the worst player out of all these guys for sure...
Fact of the matter remains that a guy on a rookie contract is playing just as good if not better than Battier. Not to mention that Denver got him for a 2nd round pick. I know it's hard for you to swallow all that. Do you mean when Afflalo was averaging 12.9 and 16.7 mpgs his first two years in the league? Again, Afflalo is currently putting up either comparable or better numbers than Battier across the board while playing less mpg this season, but you seem to have a problem with reality. Golden State did and he played real well in their historic upset of a 67 win Dallas team in the first round. In relation to the rest of your post, there are plenty of guys bounce around the league both currently and historically. Chauncey Billups and Vernon Maxwell come to mind. You're not giving me anything. The numbers speak for themselves. If you don't think Pietrus could've been had for, not even a lottery pick, but a future 1st round draft pick, then you really have no idea what you're talking about. These types of role players are readily available. History supports that notion. It's just that Battier has been overhyped, overrated, and severely overpaid so people think that he's special, but he's not. But as this thread shows the tide is turning: http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=181714 Posey is declining just like Battier and is on the bench where he (and Battier) belong. However, Posey was acquired as a throw-in a trade to Miami, a free agent by Boston, and through free agency by NO. Moreover, James has already proven that he was a clutch role player, because he brought it when it counted the most in the Finals twice and has two rings as a result. While, on the other hand, Battier's playoff futility is well documented. You still won't accept the fact that the Rockets overpaid for Battier. He wasn't the answer. He wasn't the missing ingredient. He didn't put the team over the top even when everybody was healthy. Also, when compared to the other players in the original post, their production is either better or comparable to Battier's, but all were acquired in either minor moves or via free agency, and none are close to making almost $7 million a year. Your boy is overhyped, overrated, and overpaid, but don't worry he'll be gone sooner or later.
There's not much there to take in. There's a reason why he was a second round pick, he showed why his first year in the league. He wasnt ready. It was a gamble. A young team can gamble, veteran teams not so much. It's pointless to compare these guys to battier unless A) they were available when battier was, and b)they were producing at a similar level then .....now it's all hindsight. Might as well talk about all the other picks we misse dout as well too. You've always argued these guys where both better, available, AND cheaper than battier. The reality is Afflalo is only cheaper because he's on a rookie contract, he wasnt even in the league when Houston acquired battier and he could only be considered better until this year. And i'm sure no one here thinks Afflalo was going to make up for the loss of tmac and yao this year. And he's definitely not avilable now that he finally improved enough. So he's cheaper only due to age, he wasnt better back then, and he was only available when he sucked, not once he broke out. Golden state did what? They sure didnt give him more than a 2 yr contract, so i guess you mean they picked him over battier, but you're assuming its because they preferred barnes. Perhaps they didnt have a way to get battier? Ever think of that? It's great that he did so well int he first round, perhaps it had a lot to do with the style GS played? Obviously GS didnt think too highly of barnes if they kept giving him one year contracts. Billups is not one of those guys. He bounced around initially, but the guy was a very high pick, the talent was there he just wasnt living up to it. He also didnt bounce around because he could only get one year offers. He was traded the majority of the time. After 4 teams he found his groove AND signed a long term deal. Barnes meanwhile is on his 7th team and isn't close to finding a long term home, or contract..... very bad example. Maxwell was more talented than any one of these guys, surely there had to be another reason why he bounced around, right? Could it possiby be because he did things like losing his temper, and punching a fan? Not to mention he only played on 3 teams his first 10 years in the league. Hardly bouncing around. He started bouncing around after that, which coincidentally was around the time he started having several personal issues and his play suffered. I would think a rockets' fan would know this, but whatver helps you're argument , right? ...Another bad example... Just like i had no idea the last time you brought up pietrus and you suggested he could be had...then i showed you links to reports from his stint with GS, that clearly stated he wasnt available. I guess we better make more polls about nba players and make basketball GMs all over the league aware of the results. I'm sure what casual NBA fans thinks is very important to them. By the way, wasn't the tide turning last year, when surely battier wouldnt make it past the summer as a Rocket? Maybe the tide was in the Pacific and morey was in the Atlantic? Better get that man a map and a compass! Posey is declining now? didnt you want him this summer? Yeah posey came through in the clutch leading his teams to the finals...wait he didnt lead them he just took the opportunities that were presented because of the superstars that lead those teams to the finals. Face it, there's no evidence that battier would choke if given the same opportunities in the NBA finals. The NBA finals dont equal the first round of the playoffs, just incase you hadnt noticed.. And i think pretty much every player in the league "will be gone sooner or later". It wouldnt surprise me if he stuck around, retired here at 35 yrs of age, and the next day you rushed to post how you were right. and that part in bold, it's the same stuff you spit out to start the thread, the same stuff i already showed you isnt/wasnt the case, and it's the same stuff you'll keep posting after this thread is dead. It gets very old. You're living in the past.
Regarding Afflalo. First, this trade occured AFTER the 2009 draft, or AFTER we drafted Taylor and Budinger, and AFTER we acquired signed Ariza. Are you suggesting that on top of our glut of wings, and our glut of roster, and our luxury tax situation with little chance of a championship, that we should add more salary and players by taking on Afflalo? Or perhaps you are suggesting that Morey should have used his clairvoyance to hold out on all those roster moves, and totally bank on the one home run that is the Afflalo trade? Regarding Matt Barnes. You're cherry picking data here. While you're using his 06-07 playoff production to support his 09-10 production, you are conveniently forgetting his forgettable 07-08 regular season production of 30% three point shooting. (And yes, I recognize how this analogous to the current Ariza situation). Regarding " guys who bounce around the league". Its soo easy to look at the outlier and declare that that is the norm. For every ONE Chauncey Billups, or every ONE Vernon Maxwell, there will several guys who are grossly overpaid (Larry Hughes, Zach Randolph, Elton Brand, Darko, Stro swift) or just guys who bounce around the league because they're not good enough to stay on one team (marcus banks, . My point is that this is full of hindsight bias. You see one supporting data point in the past and say ITS SOOOO OBVIOUS, acting as is that situation was ambiguous to everyone but you. And according to Morey's track record via drafts and trades, he's pretty good at doing that right thing in the midst of all the ambiguity. You're conveniently forgetting that we also got rid of a Brian Cook contract equivalent with 4 more years left on a MLE contract along with our draft pick. So each transaction isn't as lopsided as you make it out to be. Pietrus was acquired on the open market for just under MLE money. Battier has earned just above MLE money. And while Rudy Gay is the person we always compare Battier to, Memphis had to pay for his salary along with Stro's salary. Hmm, where can we find a player through free agency who "has already proven that he was a clutch role player" and one who "brought it when it counted the most in the finals" but who is not "declining just like Battier"? Trevor Ariza anyone? If you're going to discredit Morey in saying he overpaid for Battier, does he get positive credit for signing Ariza at the MLE? This is worth repeating: you speak with a whole lot of hindsight bias. You are exaggerating how absolutely certain Rudy Gay was NOT going to become into a talented athletic but low IQ player (Tyrus Thomas), you are downplaying the significance of getting rid of Stromile Swift's contract, and downplaying what the team championships aspirations for production NOW vs. production LATER. At the very least, acknowledge that those factors existed. Acknowledge that if Rudy Gay turned out to be Tyrus Thomas at the wing spot, it would not have been surprising. Acknowledge that Stromile Swifts 4 year MLE contract had negative value, similar to the dead weight we all complain Brian Cook to be. Acknowledge that there are only so many opportunities to win a championship, so if you can increase your chances within the window of opportunity, you do it, and worry about later production later (a la Ron Artest for Donte Greene). We can disagree on how important or significant each factor is when it comes to making a decision, but when it comes to your posts it feels like you don't even acknowledge these factors exist, so I have no way of saying something like "I disagree with your belief that there was an 80% Rudy Gay would have been the next Andre Iguodola, because I feel there was only a 50% chance of that ".
^^ Good post Oh and on the defensive end - Rudy is still light years away from holding Iguodala's jock -- let alone Shane's.
I'm not focusing on the past, you're the one that keeps bringing it up, and I'm addressing it when you do. My original post is dealing with the present. Afflalo is a better value than Battier. There's no disputing that. Since you insist on rehashing the past, let me break something to you: ALL those guys are cheaper. Posey in his prime was cheaper. Bowen was cheaper as well. We can go on and on. And none of them cost a lottery pick, which is why they are all better values and their production was either comparable or better. I have no idea what you're trying to say here, but the fact is that these types of role players are expendable and move around a lot. For some reason you seem to think Battier is exceptional. The only thing exceptional about him is the high cost associated with acquiring him and his terrible contract. Do you really think that if a team offered the Warriors a future 1st rd pick for Pietrus they would've said no? Not a lottery pick, but just a 1st round pick. It's funny how you're quick to dismiss mass opinion when it's not in your benefit. Reading is fundamental. Where did I say Posey led his team to the finals? Stop making stuff up. Battier has played with superstars as well and again his playoff futility is well documented. Posey and Elie were guys that kept bouncing around even after they helped teams win championships, but I guess they're "bad examples." They're probably bad examples because they helped OTHER teams win rings after they were moved while Battier couldn't even handle Matt Harpring in the playoffs. Again, this thread is about the present. YOU'RE the one that keeps bringing up the past. All I did was post the current stats of 4 players who play similar roles and functions for their team. If you look at the current production of those players vs their salaries, Battier is by far the worst. There is no disputing that either. I'm not suggesting anything other than what I've already said in my reply to RV6: If you look at the current production of those four players vs their salaries, Battier is by far the worst. Are you disputing that? Afflalo is currently a better value than Battier. There's no disputing that either. You're making baseless assumptions. Matt Barnes played well that entire season and for subsequent years he performed his role adequately and is currently doing so as well (especially given his salary over the years). I'm not sure how I'm cherry picking data either when his current stats which I posted show that he's 29% from 3 pt land. Anyways, my focus is on the present, I was just responding to a poster who brought up the past. Role players, even successful ones, bounce around. They are expendable. They move from team to team. They don't cost lottery picks. They can be acquired, as my original post indicates, through free agency and other minor transactions. That is the norm. The majority of examples clearly demonstrate that. Morey has done a good job. I've never said that he was horrible or anything, but whoever was responsible for trading a lottery pick, especially when a guy like Rudy Gay lands in your lap (even with Swift's contract included) for a role player like Battier made a bad choice. Not even factoring in the ridiculous cost associated with acquiring Battier, Do you think he is currently a good value given his salary and production? Thanks for proving my point for me. Even more reason why Battier needs to be moved. If you genuinely believe that Battier was the missing piece to put the Rockets over the top then I don't know what to tell you. He wasn't and that opinion is supported by the fact that the Rockets didn't "win now" even when everybody was healthy in 2007. They were bounced in the 1st round with Battier being unable to handle the likes of Matt Harpring.
All i gotta say to that is your original post included how they were acquired in the past. If that's not bringing up the past, then i dont know what is. No one is going to argue that those guys could helps us now, since they are shooting better than battier, but the point is we're not in a position to acquire them now as battier replacements and you clearly know that. Your whole post is implying we could have acquired them in the past and they would have produced more offensively and at a better price than battier now. AKA hindsight...The only way you could say, with a straight face, that it's all about the present is if they were all available this summer and we picked battier out of the bunch.
I'm not sure what that even means anymore. You act like he was our lebron james or something. He was a piece of a bigger puzzle, with other pieces, some bigger. Tons of things didnt work out, from rafer to bonzi, to yao/tmac. Failing to advance in the playoffs ONE season as a healthy team doesnt prove jack. If that's the case then Barnes and Pietrus are failures as well, i dont see them with any banners. And of course you'll bring up that posey has one, aka bringing up the past, even though it's all about the "present" supposedly and Posey is out of the picture this season.
Here is the main point of this thread (which focuses on the present) that I even put in bold for you: If you look at the current production of those players vs their salaries, Battier is by far the worst. Given that they all play similar roles and functions for their team, do you agree or disagree with that? People think that Battier is some type of once in a lifetime player or something. If that's the case, Orlando must be real lucky, they got two versions of Battier that are younger, more athletic, provide comparable if not better production in less mpg, and who combined still make less than the one and only Shane! Simply amazing, how did they do it?!?!
i disagree with both those statements. Ive never made out battier to be that important, but at the same time it's ridiculous to think those guys provide the same thing battier has provided defensively over the years. Offensively, they're better, no one can dispute that. As a whole, they're a better value, but they're still not the same player Battier is. You can take that as me saying battier is one of a kind and special, and i'm sure you will, but that's now what i mean. I literally just mean they arent the same. If the rockets thought battier brought what they needed and his contract, although not a steal, was fair, then who am i to argue with that? All we can do as fans is hope they know what they're doing and catch them when they try to cover up their mistakes or get rid of them. As of now, they have neither tried to get rid of battier or cover him up (bench him). That tells me they still believe he wasnt a mistake. Maybe you need to have a one on one talk with Morey and sort it all out for him?
Once upon a time Battier was an elite defender...shocking eh? At the time the trade was made it was a no brainer...a solid defender/smart IQ guy for an unproven lottery pick. Now the unproven lottery pick has turned out pretty well but hindsight is 20/20. Obviously age as caught up and Battier is no longer an elite defender, and except for providing leadership he's not doing much on the court..i think he only keeps starting because of his former reputation and because he's a likable guy...plus..who's gonna start over him?
In that case i'm brooks, i'm butler, i'm yao, and so many more i've defended. Hey maybe i can get a 10 day contract, with so much talent!
