Some try to defend Love like he is their cousin or whatever, but in reality that pic above is just what camera cut - there was hundreds and thousands photos made in that particular play and guess what picture will give you most hits and discussion? Exactly. But reality is Love is the one who tryd to escape from that hold constantly moving his hand up&down and got injury... No one pulled him down either...
What are you talking about? Okay, I haven't posted about it all. But how do you "defend" someone who almost got his arm ripped off? I see people accusing Kelly Olynyk of hurting another player, based on the following evidence: 1. Olynyk grabbed and held Love arm in two places 2. Love's shoulder popped out of its socket Pretty strong evidence. The defending, if there's any to be done, will be for Olynyk. He says it was an "accident."
How is that "strong evidence"? NBA players say #1 happens all the time - and they seem like the ones that would know. The only players who've said it was dirty are Cavs players, who would understandably think that. Other ex-players (now TV analysts) have seen the video too and say it's fairly normal. #2 is not evidence of intent at all. It's just an outcome that could be a result of an accident or intentional.
He did held him, but that's all he did. Both ran same direction holding each other, Love suddently slows down but because Olynyk held his hand he took his weight as well, lost balance and was one second away from falling to the ground with Love. Love at the other hand did not want to and tryd to escape pulling his hand up, physics did the rest tho and he has what he has. No one to blame for. Just watch the video several times and I think you would agree.
Between Van Gundy & the TNT guys saying it wasn't dirty or wasn't intentional... Spoiler <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Not arguing that. It definitely should have been a foul. I'm arguing that Olynyk did not INTEND to hurt Love <a href="https://t.co/LOemHaufdp">https://t.co/LOemHaufdp</a></p>— Malik Rose (@MalikRose) <a href="https://twitter.com/MalikRose/status/592728297198452736">April 27, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>His intent wasn't to get the ball. It was to NOT let Love get it. <a href="https://t.co/EO6yLPnMzo">https://t.co/EO6yLPnMzo</a></p>— Malik Rose (@MalikRose) <a href="https://twitter.com/MalikRose/status/592730727990566912">April 27, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>And great rebounders like Kevin Love do it 15 times a game. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/TRUTH?src=hash">#TRUTH</a> <a href="https://t.co/LpFNpcGWjs">https://t.co/LpFNpcGWjs</a></p>— Malik Rose (@MalikRose) <a href="https://twitter.com/MalikRose/status/592731055024697345">April 27, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>This is what you fail to realize... It HAS happened to me. REPEATEDLY. Never snapped or dislocates but HURTS LIKE <a href="https://t.co/Q22AcvpGeK">https://t.co/Q22AcvpGeK</a></p>— Malik Rose (@MalikRose) <a href="https://twitter.com/MalikRose/status/592731372214693888">April 27, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>More yanking twisting gripping and holding going on than what you see. Speaking from experience sir. <a href="https://t.co/Mb8XByY5Lr">https://t.co/Mb8XByY5Lr</a></p>— Malik Rose (@MalikRose) <a href="https://twitter.com/MalikRose/status/592733587306377216">April 27, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Absolutely intentional and absolutely should have been a foul. Did he mean to pull his arm out of socket? HELL NO! <a href="https://t.co/3pDuIry5Jm">https://t.co/3pDuIry5Jm</a></p>— Malik Rose (@MalikRose) <a href="https://twitter.com/MalikRose/status/592735793485094912">April 27, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>You non players will never get it. Has nothing to do with me condoning it. I accept it as PART OF THE NBA. It was <a href="https://t.co/0JiLzbZRix">https://t.co/0JiLzbZRix</a></p>— Malik Rose (@MalikRose) <a href="https://twitter.com/MalikRose/status/592737017806589953">April 27, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Nah <a href="https://twitter.com/marcelluswiley">@marcelluswiley</a> that's our version of "in the trenches"</p>— Rick Fox (@RickFox) <a href="https://twitter.com/RickFox/status/592490867061039107">April 27, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Seconds earlier <a href="https://twitter.com/marcelluswiley">@marcelluswiley</a> roles reversed - Kelly trying to pull his arm free - <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ItsPartOfTheGame?src=hash">#ItsPartOfTheGame</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Unfortunate?src=hash">#Unfortunate</a> <a href="http://t.co/B6asRILxiS">pic.twitter.com/B6asRILxiS</a></p>— Rick Fox (@RickFox) <a href="https://twitter.com/RickFox/status/592493646156591106">April 27, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Players get tangled and how they get untangled isn't always pretty - the game will always be a physical game <a href="http://t.co/mvax7dojvU">pic.twitter.com/mvax7dojvU</a></p>— Rick Fox (@RickFox) <a href="https://twitter.com/RickFox/status/592506236039462914">April 27, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Great hustle on both players part - each using every method at their disposal to survive - is it a dirty game? YES <a href="http://t.co/3hDLtrzWE8">pic.twitter.com/3hDLtrzWE8</a></p>— Rick Fox (@RickFox) <a href="https://twitter.com/RickFox/status/592507046391582720">April 27, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/InsideTheNBA?src=hash">#InsideTheNBA</a> guys hit it on the head <a href="https://twitter.com/kevinlove">@kevinlove</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/KellyOlynyk">@KellyOlynyk</a> was accidental not dirty <a href="https://twitter.com/TheRealJRSmith">@TheRealJRSmith</a> dirty - Chuck calling for 5 Games</p>— Rick Fox (@RickFox) <a href="https://twitter.com/RickFox/status/592554388293554176">April 27, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>We ALLOW physicality in our game - We ACCEPT that its a part of it - We PERMIT each other to play this way & WE INCLUDE we could get hurt!</p>— Rick Fox (@RickFox) <a href="https://twitter.com/RickFox/status/592568870000599040">April 27, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>We all would like to think the game can be played between the lines & within the rules - <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Facade?src=hash">#Facade</a> U got a peak behind the curtain today <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Real?src=hash">#Real</a></p>— Rick Fox (@RickFox) <a href="https://twitter.com/RickFox/status/592582839981379584">April 27, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>In a NBA season We roll ankles - sprain knees -dislocate joints - bloody noses - loose teeth - dent faces - get stitches...shall I go on ?</p>— Rick Fox (@RickFox) <a href="https://twitter.com/RickFox/status/592584654206607362">April 27, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> and
#1 is important. What changed my mind about this is the wrist grab. IT DOES NOT HAPPEN ALL THE TIME. Arm locking does. Arm locking AND wrist grabbing doesn't. Whether Olynyk intentionally tried to dislocate Love's shoulder is debatable. What is clear is that it was dirty and reckless and very dangerous. It should be a flagrant 2.
I honestly don't think he wanted to hurt Kevin Love (or not that badly). I do think it was reckless and dangerous to do the wrist grab. I'm not stupid enough to think the trenches are a peaceful, nice place. But as a fan, I hate to see one of the better players on one of the better teams taken out needlessly.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Announcement on Kevin Love prognosis & timetable may be delayed as he seeks 2nd opinion(s), sources say. As a free agent, a lot to consider.</p>— Brian Windhorst (@WindhorstESPN) <a href="https://twitter.com/WindhorstESPN/status/592753367019089920">April 27, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
I'm not saying it wasn't flagrant. There's 3 questions here: (1) Was it an intentional foul? (2) Was it a flagrant foul? (3) Was he actively trying to injure Love? Some people are saying Yes to all 3. I'm saying 1, obviously; 2, yeah I'll grant that; but 3, the evidence is paltry. He grabbed Love's wrist and pinned his arm -- yeah I see that. He obviously didn't want Love to get that ball. If he had any intents beyond that, you'd have to be a mindreader to know.
Olynyk willfully engaged in an action that is banned by the league because, among other reasons, it can lead to serious injury. I would argue that regardless of intent, Love getting hurt was a foreseeable circumstance of KO's actions.
I'd grant that. And if the league gave him a multi-game suspension on the basis that his foul was reckless and dangerous, I'd have no problem with that either.
We can actually stick to the NBA rule book with two simple questions: Do you think he fouled Love, albeit trying to hide it from the ref? Do you think what he did was excessive and unnecessary? Notice I didn't say "intended to hurt Love." The rules for a Flagrant 2 do not require intent to injure. The rules just require a yes to the two above. To me, it's a clear Flagrant 2 with suspension. Which, nearly by definition, refutes everyone's claim that this happens every game. Just like head shots. Some are just incidental common fouls, some are excessive and unnecessary so are Flagrant 2s, and don't happen often.
It was a dirty play. Doesn't matter if it happens every game. A lot of players do it. I've seen Harden do it but it's dirty and until they start fining it seriously players will still do it.
I can agree with that. Maybe he's like Lennie from "Of Mice and Men" and just doesn't know what he did is a serious wrestling maneuver that hurts people. I'll give him that. His reaction was one of an oaf. lols But, there is a fourth topic here: The claim this happens all the time. It doesn't. Don't see how anyone could think Love (who is a prolific rebounder) encounters that hold every game. We'd see much more shoulder separations. And it being called a Flagrant 2 will confirm that it doesn't happen all the time.
Hard to argue with the fact that Olynyk grabbed Love's arm with his wrist after both of their arms were locked up. I can understand an elbow to the ribs trying to leverage for position, but from the video and pictures it seems like he was more intent on stopping Love than trying to make a play himself. I'm sure he didn't intend to dislocate his shoulder, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a cheap shot. If this happened to a Rockets player we would be fuming. I'm sure the entire Celtics team was riled up after getting shoved around by Cleveland (nice job there, Jae).
I don't disagree with any of that. I am just debating whether there was any intent to injure. Flagrant 2's are based on result rather than intent. They can be (and often are) dirty and intentional; they can also just be accidental/stupid but ugly. If you punch someone in the head because of you were angry at yourself and just meant to punch air, there was no intent, but it's still a flagrant 2.
The action of grabbing and holding an arm happens all the time. The tweet earlier shows Love doing the exact same thing a fraction of a second earlier in the same play. Where it went wrong is that they were moving in different directions while the arm was pinned, with Olynyk stumbling away from the ball while Love was fighting to go towards it. That creates an awkward angle that resulted in the injury. Again, it's not fans saying that it happens all the time - it's NBA players. They saw the video too, and they know better than you or I.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Kevin Love has been ruled out of the Eastern Conference semifinals by the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cavs?src=hash">#Cavs</a></p>— Jason Lloyd (@JasonLloydABJ) <a href="https://twitter.com/JasonLloydABJ/status/592811532016340992">April 27, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
