I love Proverbs 12:11, because it basically says, in the modern era, that everyone working on web software, financial analysis, political consulting and energy trading lacks judgment.
Hay dood. Not cool. Web stuff is not immaterial... kinda. I mean, coders are basically the modern day farmer... right?
I believe any able body person should try to work. I have stated several times in this thread that welfare should only be a necessary safety net. I am not against welfare. I am against able body people mooching off of the government without even trying to find work. The Bible is full of scripture telling us to help the less fortunate. It also has a lot of scripture telling us to work hard. The two go hand in hand. If you are able to work you should while helping others. If you are unable to work then good Christian people should help while government sponsored programs are already in place. IT IS THE FREE LOADERS THAT BOTHER ME. I happen to think some able body people are content to live off of other peoples hard work. Welfare should only be for the truly needy and a safety net for able body people who fall on hard times until they find work. "Social justice" should not include free loaders. You know that there are a significant number of people who fit this description. The "truly needy" already have government help through welfare programs and universal healthcare through Medicare and Medicaide. I also do what I can on my own to help the "truly needy" as I am told to do in the Bible. I happen to be an independent who votes for the candidate who I feel will do the best job. I do not follow the Republican party manifesto or whatever you call it. I am not registered to either party. I admit that I usually vote Republican more than Democrat but it is based on the individual candidates and not the R or D in front of their names. Like I said earlier I don't believe our beliefs are really all that different. You apparently feel government should have a more expanded role in helping people, I do not. We both believe it is our duty to help the truly less fortunate. Question- Do the able body free loaders who eagerly take all the government will give them without looking for meaningful work not bother you? If they do then our beliefs are very similar. Hey peace brother in Christ. We are both Christians and Rockets fans. May God shed his blessings on you and your family!!
I have a question for all the Christians who feel their faith leads them to support expanded "social justice" which is generally a liberal idea and thus supported by the Democratic party. How do you reconcile your support for more "social justice" with votes for Democratic candidates who support this while most, not all, of these same candidates support abortion? Do you feel that helping the needy through expanded "social justice" outweighs the "Though shall not kill" commandment? Most Christian denominations, if not all of them, are against abortion. There may be some that support it but I am unaware of any. I personally think it is murder. I am not trying to stir another long debate but I am curious to how other Christians feel about this subject. Peace and may God bless you all!
For claiming to be christian you sure seem to be very judgmental of others. Is that normal for christians or just a shortcoming on your part? I’m not a religious person and have no dog in this fight. It’s just an observation.
Who have I passed judgement on. I have stated my views as have others in this thread but I haven't been judgemental. I have stated that I believe that all abled body people who are on welfare should be trying to find meaningful work. I have also had discussion with people whose view of scripture foster their belief that there should be expanded "social justice". My view of scripture tells me we should only help those that truly need it. That does not make me judgemental. I have been very cordial with everyone I have had discussion with. I would also like to urge you to be open to the Bible and it's teachings so you may come to know Jesus. He will change your life for the better.
It actually isn't that clear on the bible when life begins. St. Thomas Aquinas believed that life began after 40 days. St. Augustine believed 3 months. Not one of them argued it began at conception based on the bible. The bible itself talks of people who were doing God's work ripping children from the wombs. I'm not saying I agree with that. I'm saying that I don't enough about when life begins to be so violently opposed to it, that I would sacrifice voting for politicians who are in favor of ending discrimination, providing health care, torture, illegal wars, and other just and good things because of something that I don't know enough about. I think the medical community may know more about when life begins. I don't necessarily believe that abortion means killing. I know that killing chimpanzees and monkeys in research is killing something that has more consciousness than an infant will have for several years. I'm not saying that makes aborting a fetus alright. I honestly don't know. So I will make my political decisions on what I'm more sure of. I'm not trying to change your mind about your stance on abortion. You are entitled to it, and if you believe it's murder than you should be firmly committed against it. But it's not your place to judge others who feel differently. I don't think you have a right to judge St. Thomas Aquinas on this issue of biblical research. I think there are legitimate differences that can be made and held. One isn't more Christian than the other. I don't think any churches are in favor of abortion, but there are certainly some in favor of choice.
You do realize that fraud only happens in a underwhelming minority of welfare cases right? Most welfare goes to pay for health care, and it mostly goes to the elderly. These aren't people who would be out there working without it, but are just freeloading and scamming the system. It seems like you want to punish the majority who need it because you are unhappy about the minority who abuse the system.
As an LDS Church member, I am just sad that ignorant people out there may hear the things Glenn Beck says and decide that, in whatever measure, they reflect the tenets of the LDS Church. Many of the things he says are just simply incongruent with LDS doctrine, and then he just acts like an asshat to top things off. Or, Glenn could just read from the Book of Mormon: And now, if God, who has created you, on whom you are dependent for your lives and for all that ye have and are, doth grant unto you whatsoever ye ask that is right, in faith, believing that ye shall receive, O then how ye ought to impart of the substance that ye have one to another. And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life belongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou has done. I say unto you, wo be unto that man, for his substance shall perish with him; and now, I say these things unto those who arr rich as pertaining to the things of this world. And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give. And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are condemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received. And now for the sake of these things which I have spoken unto you - that is, for the sake of retaining a remission of your sins from day to day, that ye may walk guiltless before God - I would that ye should impart of your substance to the poor, every man according to that which he hath, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and administering to their relief, both spiritually and temporally, according to their wants. (Mosiah 4: 21-26, emphasis added) There are examples everywhere, but I don't know that Glenn Beck really knows much about LDS doctrine in general.
Sorry for the delay in responding: I was working my second job...as director of youth and adult music ministry at a Disciples of Christ Church. So, yeah, assuming that I'm not a Christian just because I don't agree with what you're saying? You = fail. Yeah, you posted this already. Posting it again doesn't make it any more germane. This says people who steal should get to work. Unless you're saying that 100% of people on welfare are thieves (which I know you're not), this doesn't say a thing about whether or not you should contribute to welfare. You may argue that is indicates that welfare needs reform (an issue with which I would agree), but that's not what you and Mr. Beck are saying. You're saying that "social justice" = Nazi communism. And your scripture doesn't support that in the slightest. You do realize that Christianity includes more than just Baptists, right? You should go to more churches, seeing as there have been multiple representatives from multiple denominations who have expressed their outrage with Mr. Beck's (and, by extension, your) comments. So, because I disagree with you, I must be a "mooch", eh? Well, actually, I work three jobs (one full-time and two part-time), one of which is in the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ). So, you = double-fail. Taxes are your money (i.e. - your wealth) given to the government to be redistributed to governmental (including social) programs. How is that not wealth redistribution? There have been multiple posters in this thread who have pointed out your fallacious reasoning. Listen to them, please. I'm not slow to understand: you're just saying two contradictory things. You're saying you're not against paying taxes, but you're against "wealth redistribution", when taxes are wealth redistribution. Stop parroting the talking points on Faux News and think for a bit. As for the assertion that the Bibles says we should "pay taxes so they can be redistributed to able body people who chose not to work", I'll merely say this: the Bible says give to those who ask. NOT those who you think deserve it. NOT those who vote for your candidate. NOT those who you believe meet some nebulous criteria of being "capable of work". How about... Deuteronomy 16:17 "Every man shall give as he is able, according to the blessing of the Lord your God which He has given you." (notice how it doesn't qualify WHO you should give to. It just says give). Or how 'bout Matthew 5: 39-42? That's a good one, too: "But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile. Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you." (Sounds like "social justice" to me). Or Matthew 7: 11: "If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him!" (no mention of "able-bodied" here...hmm) Or Matthew 10: 8 "Cure the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. You received without payment; give without payment." (Nope, no "able-bodied" here either...curious...) Or another from Matthew 19:21 (Matthew was big on giving) "Jesus said to him, 'If you wish to be perfect, go, sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.'" (I'm sure He would have said something about the "able-bodied" poor if He'd thought about it at the time... ) and lastly, my favorite, Proverbs 28:27 "Whoever gives to the poor will lack nothing, but one who turns a blind eye will get many a curse." You've been warned, son.
How do you know that this is happening in a large number? Because you are told that it is? If so, what political ax to grind to they have and to what degree are you becoming their sheep? Who gets to decide who is worthy? You? Me? Some board somewhere? The result you seem to crave is dissonant with every concept of Jesus that I have ever been taught by my parents or in church. You also ignore the fact that most welfare programs go to the elderly, the disabled, or a a subsidy to those who work minimum wage jobs that will not feed their family. Yet you judge them as lazy without knowing their situation. Again at dissonance with everything I know of Jesus. Could you be any more vague? What constitutes "significant?" Do you have evidence, or are you taking somebody's biased word for it? More important question - Do you have actual knowledge of all these supposed freeloaders or are you taking the word of somebody that may bear false witness against his neighbor for political (or ratings) gain? For 6 years, I represented people in bankruptcy. A good many of them were on some form of public assistance (food stamps, WIC, SSDI, housing assistance, welfare). The vast majority of them were doing what they could to supplement it. This included a man on SSDI mowing lawns against doctor's orders. He has been told that this type of work could lead to a coronary. You would never know by looking at him. You would think he was gaming the system. You should learn something from this story. Jesus taught us not to judge. You seem to be doing nothing but judging. I will not call you a hypocrite because I do not think you are. We all have things we need to work on. I know I have mine. This seems like it may be one of yours.
Interesting discussion particularly the battling Bible quotes. One observation is that I think "social justice" is being looked at very narrowly as being solely wealth distribution through taxes. From looking at the Biblical quotes posted you could take government completely out of the equation and still say that the Bible is for wealth distrubution, through personal giving. Also the term "social justice" covers many other issues besides just taxes. I think FB was the only guy to bring that up.
Couldn't agree more. Thanks to FB (and you, rj) for pointing this out. That is exactly what makes Beck's comments so galling, so infuriating. The idea that those within churches who preach "social justice" are Nazis or communists because they want to help the poor is just so insulting to all that Christianity tries to represent.
Not exactly. The Roman state ran vast bakeries that provided free bread to Romans whether able bodied or not. On top of that the Romans also built a lot of infrastructure and provided things like free drinking water. Taxes paid to Ceasar weren't just kept by Ceasar but a lot of it was used to provide what we would consider welfare and other services back to people all over the Empire, even to subjugated people like the Judeans. While I am on the subject of early Christian history too. From what I have heard of early Christian communities is that they operated more like what we would considered comunes and practiced an economic lifestly that resembled classical Comunism as described by Marx. Essentially early Christians didn't work for the attainment of personal profit but comunally shared their resources with every part of the comunity. I will add that I don't think that modern economic terms and definitions can be applied to the time of Jesus and the Roman Empire I think it is very safe to say that early Christians didn't follow the Capitalistic and Consumer based economic model that we follow and what people like Glenn Beck are advocating.
