I never once said that people should not pay taxes. It is our duty as Christians and Americans to pay the taxes that we owe. I only have a problem with wealth redistribution as "social justice".
well that's the first time i've ever heard that most christians have the same beliefs as glenn beck... i mean, i've always thought it, to the chagrin of many religious friends, but i guess i fell into their web of lies... turns out beck really is a bastion of holiness and a soldier of the lord!!!
Please direct me to the scripture that supports this definition of "social justice". For that matter, show me the church that preaches this definition of "social justice". You'll be hard pressed to do either. But that's not what Beck said: he said "social justice"=communism, and any church which preaches social justice should be abandoned, which members of the clergy from both the right and left in multiple denominations are saying is absurd, at best. He's using these buzzwords to scare people into falling in line, and if don't see that, it's because you choose not to.
And Beck is a Mormon. Conservative Christians HATE Mormons, moreso than liberal Christians. I play at a conservative Southern Baptist church. The pastor likes to go off on other Christian denominations. He had a Wednesday night series on the evils of Mormonism. He's also really conservative, maybe one step shy of that pastor in Arizona to told his congregation to pray for Obama to die. So I'm wondering if he's conflicted about agreeing with a statement on religion made by a Mormon.
Hebrews 13:16 Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God. Proverbs 22:9 Whoever has a bountiful eye will be blessed, for he shares his bread with the poor. Matthew 5:42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you. All these scripture speak of an individual helping others. I challenge you to show one scripture where it says to give to the government so they can help others. Ephesians 4:28 Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. (This can be applied to people on welfare who are too lazy to work and support themselves because they are basically stealing) Liberal churches who preach "social justice" are generally talking about wealth redistribution through taxation. Again he was talking about "LIBERAL CHURCHES" not all churches. I seriously doubt you have ever taken the time to actually listen to the man. His main theme is that America will go bankrupt if we keep going into debt with TRILLION + dollar deficits not criticizing churches.
I have never once heard Beck preach on his show. I do not care for the Mormon religion myself however his show is not religious in nature it is political. When and if he starts preaching I will stop listening.
So he's only talking about liberal churches that preach social justice and not conservative churches that preach social justice. Got it. Still funny how conservatives are all of a sudden upset about the deficit after not giving a **** (at least not publicly) during the Bush administration. The last time the government had a budget surplus, a Democrat was in the White House.
As a practicing Mormon, I would just assume people didn't associate my faith with people like Glenn Beck. Obviously I've never met him, and I have no idea how sincere is recent "conversion" is/was, but every time I see his name pop up with something like this it makes me a little nauseated.
Let me ask you which is more effective. I want you to actually think about the scripture and the intent of the message. Is the message about people giving to the poor at least in part about actually helping the needy? If that is so then which is of more help to the needy. 100 different organizations which each receive $10 from 100 different people, or a centralized organization which receives the money, and actually has enough to do more good with it? If Jesus told us to follow the spirit of the law(which he did) you tell me which one is more to the spirit of the law. It's fine to disagree with a style of government in which the least fortunate are also cared for, but please don't act like churches that support policies that help look after the least fortunate and needy of our society are less Christian than churches that don't.
I do not know what church you go to. Maybe they preach about "social justice" every Sunday, but at the Baptist church I go to I have never heard a sermon on "social justice". I have been a member of three different churches in my lifetime, all Baptist and have had several different preachers. I have also attended some Church of Christ, Mehodist, and Catholic services with friends or while traveling. The sermons I have heard in my lifetime were centered around faith and taking Jesus Christ as one's personal savior. The only sermon's that were even close were about helping others in need not giving more to the government. I never approved of Bush's crazy spending either. Obama's deficits are totally insane. We will go bankrupt at this rate. We can't sustain TRILLION + dollar deficits. and the Republicans controlled Congress
Did you even read my whole post? Quote: "The only sermon's that were even close were about helping others in need not giving more to the government." Where in the story of the good Samaritan does it say to help others by paying more taxes. All the stories in the bible talk about it is our responsibility as individuals to help each other, not the government. I have stated many times in this thread that all Christians have an obligation to help the less fortunate. I personally do not believe the government is the best way to achieve that goal.
Social Justice has no inherent requirement relating to taxes. It is about freeing people from being trapped and degraded by economics.
Is it you or Glenn Beck that gets to decide what taxes you owe? In all the scripture that has been brought up, it seems that Jesus tells his followers to leave the decisions about taxes to the government in favor of pursuing grace. By definition, all taxation is wealth redistribution. Next.
I am starting to believe that a lot of people only want to help others with other peoples money. If anyone believes they should help others as I do then they should take it on themselves to do so. Calling for the government to raise taxes on other people to give to other people through welfare is not the same as doing it yourself. There is no place in the Bible where we are instructed to do so. This is really kind of sad and a cop out. If you believe in "social justice" you should not wait for the government to do the job for you with other people money. There is nothing stopping individuals from giving freely to the less fortunate.
By the same token, if you think that by giving $50 dollars at the office and spending a couple of hours in a soup kitchen once a year while you spend $120,000 on a car satisfies your 'biblical obligations', you are deluding yourself. [rquoter] It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. [/rquoter]
Yes, the scriptures say to give to the poor AND to give your fair share of taxes (determined by the government, not by Christians or Christ). Really? You are comparing people who make so little money that they need welfare to a parable about a thief? If this is really how you feel about the less fortunate, I believe that you have missed the entire point of Christianity. Please point out the scripture that makes the distinction of liberal versus conservative churches. TIA I have heard plenty from him, enough to know he will never speak for me. A point that is well taken, but seems disingenuous given recent history. If you look at the chart that I posted in a recent thread regarding the debt. Government debt was far higher as a percentage of GDP during the Great Depression than it is now. We will be able to pull out of it, but there are no economists who are calling for the government to stop spending money now. Such an action could very well cause a much deeper collapse. Unfortunately, more people listen to Glenn Beck than do reputable economists, and as such believe many things that are not rooted in reality.
Nice buzz word usage, but not much of substance here. We do. True, but the two are not mutually exclusive. It is just as much your duty as a Christian to pay your fair share of taxes as it is to help the less fortunate. To be a good Christian, you must do both. Yes, there are. At least three examples of Christians being told to pony up their taxes have been posted in this thread alone. Yes, most of what comes out of Beck's mouth is. Again, we do. However, there are obligations that do not lend themselves to charitable giving. If you have cogent points about which government programs should be cut, I would love to listen, but your points in this thread have fallen rather short of being points. Maybe you should post a clip of Glenn Beck that puts it better than you can.
So now you're translating his thoughts? Because THAT'S NOT WHAT HE SAID. Exact quotes: "I'm begging you, your right to religion and freedom to exercise religion and read all of the passages of the Bible as you want to read them and as your church wants to preach them . . . are going to come under the ropes in the next year. If it lasts that long it will be the next year. I beg you, look for the words 'social justice' or 'economic justice' on your church Web site. If you find it, run as fast as you can. Social justice and economic justice, they are code words. Now, am I advising people to leave their church? Yes!" “If you have a priest that is pushing social justice, go find another parish. Go alert your bishop and tell them, ‘Excuse me, are you down with this whole social justice thing?’ ” Nowhere does he say a SINGLE WORD about "conservative" or "liberal" churches. He just says "churches". You added the word "liberal", sir. You're just plain wrong, and the clergy seems to agree.
Again, I'm going to ask you about the spirit of the law. If Christians want the needy to be helped, and would love to see things that help the needy that can come from govt. such as single payer health care, that doesn't make them less Christian. It also doesn't mean that they don't give their time and money to helping as well. The only thing that it means is that they take seriously the call to help the needy and believe that govt. can do it as well as private groups and self sacrifice. If the spirit of the law is to really help the needy, then certainly that would fall into that category. Leaving churches that believe in this isn't more Christian. For the record most of the sermons that had themes of social justice that I've heard never talked about raising taxes, but ending laws that were discriminating against women, minorities, homosexuals, and other groups that receive injustice. They talked about ending wars that were unjust and bringing peace. Furthermore churches that preached social justice have done amazing good in places such as South Africa, Central America, and the south during the civil rights movement. Churches taking active roles in social justice have a history of doing great Christ like work. I hope they keep it up.
