Zen Master right man for Yao

Actually, it's the other way around. Before PJ's arrivial, MJ was called a ball-hog, Same thing with Kobe. It's Jackson who had them playing within a system, that's called teaching!

What did JVG do with the Knicks? He inherited the same Knicks team from Riley, was underachieve all of the season until that ONE playoff run. He did nothing remotely relates to "restructuring"!

That's exactly why he is regarded as intelligent. He was not physically talent enough with that team, so he played hard-nosed physical defense, earned his reputation there.

This just shows how little you know the guy. He was an assistant coach in NBA before, he was one of the best coaches in CBA, and won a title there. That's why he was hired by Jerry Krause! The man can simply coach!

"Triangle Offense" concept was there before Tex Winters. He was the one made it a system, and wrote a book about it long time ago. There are tons of other systems out there as well. System alone cannot win you anything, otherwise every team in the league would have run the same system. The most important thing is to find a RIGHT system for the players you have. If you are a knowledgable basketball person, you'd notice the difference between the ways the Bulls ran and the way the Lakers ran. Yes, they all use the so-called "Triangle Offense", but they did it differently.

 

Please. Imagine if Rudy or Larry Brown or JVG or any other "great coach" gets two dynasty teams. You don't think there's the slightest chance some of them win the ring as well?

You give Phil Jackson the credit he deserves, which is getting Kobe and Shaq to play together. But you don't say he's a better coach than say Auerbach because he just happens to be coaching Jordan/Shaq/Kobe. Quite frankly, doing that would be a slap in the face of all the great coaches in history.

 

<rest of a fantastic post snipped>

Someone mentioned that Riley and Auerbach won titles with Magic/Kareem and Russell. To expand on that point, Jackson is one of only 4 coaches to win at least 4 titles, including Riley, Auerbach, and John Kundla of the Minneapolis Lakers. Not only did Riley have Magic and Kareem, he also had James Worthy (HOF, 1988 Finals MVP), Michael Cooper (1987 DPOY), Norm Nixon / Byron Scott, Jamaal Wilkes, Bob McAdoo, AC Green, and Mychal Thompson. Auerbach at one time or another not only had Russell, but also Bill Sharman (HOF), John Havlicek (HOF, one of the greatest forwards of all time), Tom Heinsohn (HOF), Sam Jones (arguably their best overall player during Russell's decline), and Cousy (HOF, one of the greatest PGs of all time). Kundla had George Mikan (the Chamberlain of his day), and Jim Pollard and Vern Mikkelson (a couple of top 20 players in their day).

To say that Jackson wins titles only because of superstars is to say that Red, Riley, and Kundla won titles only because of superstars. In fact, you can make a strong argument that Jackson's teams had less overall talent than Riley's or Red's. In addition, the people who claim Red's superior to PJ because he built his teams should note that Red neglected to draft Bob Cousy because he didn't think he would fit with the Celtics. Boston lucked into Cousy when the team that drafted him (Tri-Cities Blackhawks) folded and he went into a dispersal draft in 1950. The Celtics then drew his name out of a hat. In addition, Auerbach was given the tip on Russell by one of his friends at the Univ of San Francisco when Russell was playing there. It's debatable whether or not Red even knew who Russell was. Red arguably lucked into the the two players most responsible for his titles just like Jackson.

 

Give me a freakin' break. We are now speculating on whether Red Auerbach did or did not draft Cousy/Russell now? Care to share some evidence? I'm also happy to see how the Phil Jackson worshippers neglected to mention that he pretty much ended his contract to coincide with let's see, Jordan's contract. Or how he never stuck with one team and instead bolted town when he got the opportunity to actually build the team

 

And to think Del Harris actually won a Coach Of The Year Award with the Lakers! Guy couldn't control Nick Van Exel from Day 1. Van Exel was refusing to enter games when he didn't feel like it by Harris' 3rd month with the team. Guy couldn't even make the Finals with NVE, Campbell, Horry, Fox and Eddie Jones in addition to Shaq/Kobe. Guy couldn't even last 13 games after NVE was traded in order to eliminate him as a problem.

 

Here's your evidence, Mr. Gimme a freakin' break. :

Before we begin, you're right about one thing. From my memory of Red's "SportsCentury" episode, I incorrectly remembered the man who clued him into Russell as being the SF Univ coach. It was actually the coach of George Washington Univ, who knew of Russell from across the nation.

On Russell: http://www.celtic-nation.com/history/bios/red_auerbach_page_2.htm

While Cousy was an important piece to the puzzle, Auerbach knew that he needed more to make it over the hump._ His teams were executing the fast break well during those first few years, but they didn’t have the defensive presence in the middle to stop the opposition._ Bill Reinhart, Auerbach's collegiate coach at George Washington University, knew just the man for job.
William Felton Russell.
Auerbach trusted Reinhart implicitly._ When Reinhart told Auerbach that he’d just seen the greatest defensive player who ever lived, Auerbach knew right then who he wanted to propel the Celtics into champions.

On Cousy: http://www.celtic-nation.com/history/bios/red_auerbach_page_2.htm

Auerbach assumed control of the Celtics in the spring of 1950, a few days before the college draft._ Everyone with even a passing interest in the Celtics wanted Auerbach to select Bob Cousy from Holy Cross, a 6’-1” guard with a flare uncommon for that era._ Many in New England were enamored with the local product, but not Auerbach._ Auerbach wasn’t impressed with Cousy._ He didn’t like Cousy’s improvisational style, and he didn’t think Cousy took care of the basketball the way he should. _Auerbach wanted Charlie Share of Bowling Green instead._ Share was a 6’-11” center and Auerbach was a firm believer of the old adage that height couldn’t be taught._ When pressed about Cousy, Auerbach had this to say:
“I don’t give a damn for sentiment or names._ That goes for Cousy and everybody else._ The only thing that counts with me is ability, and Cousy still hasn’t proven to me that he’s got the ability._ I’m not interested in drafting someone just because he happens to be a local yokel.”
It was evident right from the start that Auerbach would do things his way in Boston, and that he didn’t care whose feelings got hurt along the way._ For added measure, there was this:
“Cousy won’t bring more than a dozen extra fans into the building._ What will bring fans into the building is a winning team, and that’s what I aim to have…proof is that eleven, at least, of the dozen teams would have selected Share as their first draft choice._ I’m sure he will make the grade._ Right now, I don’t regard Cousy as good as Ed Leede._ Remember, Leede has already made the grade and Cousy has to prove he can._ He still has to learn what to do when he doesn’t have the ball._ Maybe he will, but I think it is more important for us to get a big man like Share.”

 

would it be safe to say, if PJax fails to win a title this year with Kobe, Shaq, Mailman and GP, that he is overrated as a coach?

but then again, Rudy didn't lead us to the promised land either with Dream, Barkley, and Clyde...

 

I will fully admit that Auerbach wasn't interested in Cousy, but I thought that you were going to give me some bullcrap evidence like he wasn't going to draft Russell. You know what the funny thing is? Great coaches listen to advice. Or are you going to tell me your great coach Phil Jackson knows everything? Red listened to advice, got the 2nd best 5 in history and coached him to Champs.

Btw, did Auerbach luck into Heinsohn, Havlicek, Sam Jones, KC Jones and Sharman as well? Your mom's uncle's cousin's ex husband's great uncle... tipped him off in the 50's and 60's to build that team. Speaking of which, which HoF quality players did Phil Jackson get? Oh wait that's right... none.

I can unashamedly say Phil Jackson is a decent coach, even a good coach. But putting him up along with the greatest in history just makes me want to hurl.

 

I don't know if Phil Jackson is right for the Rox but I'm getting more convinced that JVG isnt.

 

Phil Jackson is the best coach (today) at getting the *best players* to play at their full potential.

The key there is: *best players*

He NEEDS the best in the leauge to be on his team? Why? The teaching of Sun Tzu, the Art of War. He wont go into a battle without first knowing that he has a sheer advantage form the start. That's why he went out and got Payton and Malone; he's trying to off-set any depth problems they might have had in the past. There's also the "aging Shaq" issue.

Other coaches are better at getting lesser players to play at their full potential. But Phil wont waste his time with those players.

I feel that Phil will trade his whole team to get LeBron(if Kobe leaves). I wouldn't put it past him.

This is why I want TMac now! I know that something is brewing in Phils head. And LeBron will be a force we'll have to deal with. If we can't get TMac, then Kobe.

 

Did I say Jackson is a better coach than Auerbach? Why did you have to make something up to support your point?

My point is Jackson is a great coach, and he knows X's and O's very well. Is he better than Auerbach? I don't know, but he certainly did better than anyone else when put in the position to win.

People always bring this "Jackson had talent" crap to support their argument. Hello, can you show me who has ever won without talent? How many HOF players did Auerbach & Riley had?

The other crap is "Auerbach built his team", but "Jackson was lucky to have a great team ready for him". Have you ever heard of the title called General Manager? Wouldn't Jackson do better if he were able to sign better players he'd like to have, instead of having to coach scrumb like, Will Puduer, Cartwright, Armstrong, Luke Lonely, etc?

Auerbach proved he could win with the team filled with HOF players; Jackson has proved he could win with a team has two HOFers and a bunch of scrumbs. So you tell me who is doing a better coaching job here.

 

I know many people think this way because this is the way Jackson's coaching career turned out, but he didn't choose to have "the best player" on his team when he was named the coach for the Bulls. He interviewd the Knicks job when JVG was still the coach, almost had that job if JVG didn't take that team to the final. So to say "Jackson only wants to coach a team with the BEST player" is not true.

But, I don't mind to have TMac play for us, though!

 

Well, you don't have to convice me about Phil. I like the way he thinks. I share his methods. But he would adtmit that he would get the "best" player(s) in the leage. Does it make him a lesser coach if he can also make the most out of the best? No. That's part of his makup. He's a excellent coach period. That being said, he would have not done much with out Jordan, regardless of the Pippen/Grant/Armstrong/Carwright. Those players were very good individually. But you still need that "star" to lead the team. And that's the differential factor. He knows this. Even Popovich knows this.

Rudy had a similar situation with Hakeem (w/Jordan out of the league). Rudy had the "best player." But in my opinion Rudy undercoached the team offense. Something that Phill would have done better.

Even the Vaccouver coaching staff pointed out that Hakeem was lacking in fundamental offensive knowledge (team plays). They couldn't believe it. That was due to Rudy simplton offensive schemes. They were limited.

The statement, "Jackson only wants to coach a team with the BEST player" does not mean he wouldn't change the team once he got there.

Do you think that Phil would have kept the roster the same? He would have changed the roster. Even I would have done that. Phil knows the importacne of a "star player." The "leader." Please, name the leader of the 1998-99 Knick team.

Once you get that name to me. Tell me that Phil would have not made changes.

 

Oh so I'm sure the GM just drafted players with complete disregard to what the coach thought. So I'm sure it was all CD's fault we signed Moochie, Mo and Cato to huge contracts and traded EG for 3 picks. If that were the case he really deserves to be fired.

It's funny that you think Phil Jackson could do with a better team. Good ole Auerbach was around when Cousy was draft; he was around when Russell was drafted; he was around when Havlicek was drafted; ditto Heinsohn, Sam & KC Jones and Sharman. Boy that must be the greatest GM ever. Auerbach may not have come to the conclusion by himself and needed input from others, but it's foolish to even suggest he didn't build that team.

Then we have Phil Jackson, who just happens to "be there" when Jordan/Shaq/Kobe were already in place. When Jordan retired, that was a perfect time to build the team and prove his greatness, but Phil Jackson "retired" instead.

 

Of course Jackson does. I don't know if there is any coach who doesn't want to have the best player to play for him. I thought you implied that he won't go to a team without the best player, hence the Knicks example. No one knows what he would have done with that team, I wouldn't surprised to see roster shuffling, but I doubt any of the best players (Shaq/Kobe) would have gone to that Knicks, though.

 

I don't get your point here. My point is Jackson didn't have the luxyury to bring the players he liked when he was with the Bulls. Don't you think he would have done better if he could get players he wanted, instead of coaching whoever Jerry Krause brought in?

To make one thing clear, Jackson didn't choose to retire after Jordan's retirement. He made his mind because the Bulls wanted to rebuild, MJ had the option to be with the rebuild program when Jackson made the announcement

BTW, does a coach have to build a team to be considered "great"? Isn't that mainly a GM's job?

 

Please. Building the team is partly but NOT EXCLUSIVELY the GM's job. The coach decides the system and the GM goes to try to get that system with the approval of the coach. If Phil Jackson is half the coach you think he is and Krause didn't get him the players he wanted, Krause would have been writing his own pink slip long ago.

So to answer your question, yes a coach DO have to build his own team to be great. Quite frankly, if Jackson can't win with Kobe and Shaq in his prime then we automatically know he's a lousy coach. As of right now I can say he's a decent coach.

 

Again, Auerbach drafted Charlie Share instead of Cousy. Cousy was drafted by the Tri-Cities Blackhawks in 1950, then traded to the Chicago Stags, then rallied off to 3 possible teams when the Stags folded. Boston drew his name out of a hat. Cousy was pumping gas in his hometown when he was told his rights had been awarded to Boston.

As to the 2nd point, you have to first assume that Jackson would've wanted to stay under the administration of Jerry Krause. The animosity Jackson had for Krause makes it impossible to assume that he would've been willing to rebuild under him once his contract expired. Jackson's relative power in the Lakers organization, not to mention his relationship with the owner's daughter, also makes it impossible to assume that he is only willing to stay because he has Shaq and Kobe.

As a side issue, what do you think of Jackson's 1994 season? The Bulls won 55 games and were 1 win from the Finals, after arguably losing to a late phantom call in Gm5 of the ECFs @ NY. Your 1994 Bulls: Pippen, Grant, Armstrong, Kukoc, Kerr, Pete Myers, Scott Williams, Luc Longley, Bill Wennington, Corie Blount. Hardly what I would call a team that was expected to make it that far in the playoffs. Myers, Longley, and Wennington were blended into that team beautifully. And in the playoff game where Pippen sat out vs NY, he did so because Jackson went against conventional wisdom by drawing up the final shot for Kukoc instead of Pippen. Kukoc happened to nail that shot. That's one example of an astute move by Jackson that goes unnoticed.

 

Building the team is partly, but NOT EXCLUSIVELY the GM's job.

However, a coach's talent rests upon his COACHING, AND NOT HIS HELP IN BUILDING THE TEAM.

That seems like a simple concept, but some people just don't get it. Auerbach may have been better at finding quality players to fit into his system, but when the rubber meets the road, Jackson and Auerbach both had the rare privilege of coaching many quality players. You can't claim that Auerbach was better at coaching those quality players simply because he had a hand in putting them into Celtic green. That claim just doesn't wash. Call Auerbach the greatest GM/coach, but don't claim that he's the best coach because of his talents as a GM. To play Devil's advocate, some people might be inclined to take away from Red's coaching talents when they consider that Bill Russell quickly won 2 titles after Red moved exclusively to the front office.