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Your Opinion on Cecil Cooper?

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by rockets934life, Jul 22, 2009.

  1. Buck Turgidson

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    He's almost Dierkerian in his regular warming-up of "hot" pitchers (often multiple times in the same game) on just about a nightly basis, who often never enter the game. He's running Arias (I counted a stretch in the past couple of weeks where he either pitched or warmed up in 9 out of 10 days, the one outlier was an off day) into the ground this way (Sampson too, earlier in the year, and now look at him), ala Dierk & Elarton. His yanking of Paulino (and Ortiz to a lesser extent) from the rotation to the pen & back, leaving him in for that beating at Arlington (then yanking Ortiz early a couple of weeks later) again imo, points to a guy who doesn't seem to have any sort of cohesive plan. Several times this year he's been very, very late in getting a reliever warmed up while the pitcher on the mound was obviously struggling, necessitating leaving him in for a batter or 2 too long.

    You tell me. They're the top 2 in his rotation, he ran them out there every 5 games & let them pitch...that's how he "worked" through it. Pretty much what any manager would have done.

    I don't "hate" the guy, hell, he comes across off the field as an incredibly good person, I just do not think he's long for a MLB managerial job. I'm still waiting for someone to tell me specifically what managerial/tactical/leadership functions he is particularly good at, and *why*.

    I'll also throw in that the list of highly successful baseball players (which Coop was) who were able to make the transition to coaching the lesser-gifted, is very, very short. They tend to not understand why their players can't just instinctively do the same things they did. Ted Williams & others have admitted as much, and I want to say Coop did as well in a recent interview.
     
  2. right1

    right1 Member

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    :confused:
     
  3. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

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    I have no idea whatsoever. Privately, the players could be struggling with Coop. I do not know. Externally, I do know that the team is playing damn well, better than expected, as evidenced by their won loss record.
     
  4. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

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    We could go down player by player, stating whether they are performing below, at, or above expectations. I could easily see that exercise turning into "it is all Coop's fault that he sucks" or "he is having a great year despite Coop" affair.
     
  5. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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    I don't particularly like Cooper as a manager, but with the results so far, his handling of Bourn has appeared to work. We don't know what would have happened had he allowed Bourn to bat leadoff at the beginning of the year, but using the facts at hand, Bourn has responded much better offensively this season. He could be simply maturing into a better player, but perhaps Cooper deserves some credit.

    I agree with Buck with respect to the starting pitching. There is more to managing the rotation than simply trotting your starters out there. Allowing them to stay in games, having the bullpen ready, not overworking guys by warming them up too often, etc. It does appear that he is allowing the starters to work longer into games and that has coincided with their winning ways. Earlier in the season he was seemingly yanking pitchers too early.

    So perhaps he is getting better, but he still does a number of odd things. We can get into a number of end cases but there have been one run games when Berkman or Tejada is on the bench and they never get an at bat. This was the case last year as well. He seems to save a better pinch hitter for a later inning when a "game" situation may occur in the 7th.
     
  6. plee

    plee Member

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    I agree but if the player cannot succeed or be consistant (Backe) at what point do you pull the plug, that's the test for a manager. And some players that you count on the be your star (Oswald, Bergman) and start off pretty slow, what do you do? Also, look at the players he has been dealt, do you think anybody else could get more out of the players we have. So he may not be the top tier manager but he is doing a decent job.
     
  7. Buck Turgidson

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    They're a strange team, no doubt, fun to watch yet infuriating. A riddle, wrapped in an enigma, smothered in secret sauce. Not sure anyone can explain it. How many people truly thought they'd be in the middle of a pennant chase through 90 games? Imagine if Berkman was having a typical year? All other things being equal, they'd most likely be leading the division.

    Not interested in any sort of player-by-player critique at all. I love the way he's handled the 3B quasi-platoon, I hate how he neglects to get some of the bench guys a start every few days to keep them sharp, and I'm not sure I'd give any manager much credit (or blame) for the performance of established players like Berkman/Valverde/Tejada/Lee/Pudge/Roy/etc...

    bobrek, you're right about Bourn, but I still didn't like him being juggled up & down the lineup this year & last (Pence too), if he's going to be your leadoff hitter (which is why mgmt had been interested him for 2 years), let the kid learn how to hit leadoff. Lots of conflicting pronouncements, too: sometimes told to be aggressive, sometimes Coop would say that he needs to work deeper into counts. There just doesn't seem to be a lot of consistency, even week-to-week.

    Like I said, not a fan of Coop, but I've said my piece.

    Sean Berry deserves a bunch of credit, from what I've heard about his work. Stresses keeping the hands back & taking the middle-out pitch the other way; when Pence was really hitting well earlier in the year that was his approach, and he was (somehow?) laying off a lot of the low & away. There were a couple of articles/quotes about Pence & Bourn about all the cage work they were doing, I'll see if I can find them.

    I'd be really curious if there is anything out there with some quotes from the players talking about Coop as a coach, the "he really helped me with this" type stuff.

    This is all so much easier to bull**** about while leaning on a bar instead of a keyboard. Can't complain, it's raining in the Hill Country and I'm working on a bottle of Hendrick's. **** the Cards.
     
  8. JunkyardDwg

    JunkyardDwg Contributing Member

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    You think maybe Sean Berry has had more of an impact on Bourn's maturation at the plate? Certainly, Cooper not batting him leadoff at the beginning of the season took off some pressure. But I seem to recall maybe JD or Brownie saying that Berry really helped the young guys like Bourn and Pence become just a little more patient at the plate.

    Any case, I never was a huge fan of Cooper. I would have preferred the team to look outside the organization and bring in some fresh coaching talent when Garner was released. They never even interviewed anyone else though, if I recall. I guess Cooper deserved his shot, but they could have at least looked elsewhere.

    But hey the team is doing well, so I guess it doesn't matter much. Still, regardless of what the team does, short of the WS or something, do you think the team would be justified in letting Cooper go?
     
  9. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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    My point was that Cooper's handling of Bourn seems to have paid off. Whether or not his handling had anything to do with Bourn's success thus far is unknown. I'm not necessarily giving Cooper any individual credit for his maturation as a hitter and on base guy.
     
  10. Major

    Major Member

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    At the end of the day, does anyone think this team would be doing any better with anyone else as manager? If not, there's no real argument to let him go at this point.

    I'm not a fan of his, but baseball works in weird ways at times. Maybe they've all rallied based on a hatred for Cooper. Who knows, but its working better than anyone could reasonably expect.
     
  11. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

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    Kinda like Garner taking over for Jimy. Jimy is definitely regarded as the better baseball mind, better teacher, better strategist, and is pretty much universally loved by the players he managed... but the team got hot under Garner.

    Go figure.
     
  12. Poloshirtbandit

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  13. leroy

    leroy Contributing Member

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    1530 am in Austin had Dick Justice on earlier today. He was talking about the team and how they're on another 2nd half run. Then, totally unprovoked, Justice goes into this tirade about how the players essentially hate Cooper. You could hear the host (Geoff Ketchum) have the attitude of "Ummmm...okay. I didn't ask you about that..." It was kind of strange. It might be true, but Justice came off as (his usual) a**hole self with an agenda.
     
  14. Blake

    Blake Contributing Member

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    Dick Justice is notorious for personal and unnecessary acts when he's angry at someone (see Smith, Rick after letting the strength and conditioning coach go who was Dick's buddy). I'm sure Cooper slighted him at some point so now he hates him
     
  15. Buck Turgidson

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    If Justice (or JdJO) were the sole source(s) of this, I probably wouldn't give it any creedence either, but there's way too many rumblings coming out for it to be part of someone's agenda.
     
  16. BrooksBall

    BrooksBall Contributing Member

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    pleez tell me you're kidding.
     
  17. Buck Turgidson

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    Sean Bergman was solid in '98, and Oswaldo Guillen won 2 playoff series in Houston, so maybe that's who he's talking about?
     
  18. BrooksBall

    BrooksBall Contributing Member

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    :D

    The guy has probably been an Astros fan longer than me but how can anybody possibly hack those two names like that?

    I can see somebody typing "Chris Coast with the clutch double" or even "Bourne is having a great year" but Oswald and Bergman?? :D

    I think Coup should go with this lineup on Friday:

    Born
    Kepinjer
    Tayhodda
    Li
    Pents
    Rodreegez
    Coast
    Matsooey

    (give Bergman another day of rest since we'll be facing a lefty in Yohan Antenna)
     
  19. edwardc

    edwardc Member

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    agreed last month there was so many call for his job. Look get with the team or don't the player have to preform .
     
  20. rmoreno

    rmoreno Member

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    My sentiments exactly, i don't think that he has done a GREAT job but he has done a decent job AND is getting better.
     

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