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Yet more ethnic unrest in China with at least 100 dead

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Ari, Jul 6, 2009.

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adoo Member

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Ari said:

It looks a lot like a race riot, the type we see in India and some parts of Africa all the time, almost in every conceivable way.
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the Muslim, the Uighan, the Hans are the same race---the Asian race.

you don't even understand what race is !

#21 adoo, Jul 6, 2009

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For the ill-informed, such as Ari, the following article, an insighful analysis on the Tibet (Xinjiang) / China issue, http://www.antiwar.com/chu/c121799.html , written by a Taiwanese-American architect, that might be of interest---is provided

Let's face it -- the European record on indigenous populations, Africans and Amerindians for example, isn't that great. America is carved out of many Native American nations. Africa was repartitioned into artificial states, now only to be troubled by ethnic strife, due to borders that Europeans set up. It seems, that the 'white men' has indeed wreaked havoc on the globe.

It has become fashionable to conveniently portray the Chinese are somehow the "White Men" of the east. By comparing regions of China such as Tibet, Xinjiang, and Taiwan to the territories of Native Americans or blacks, the liberals (Richard Gere, Marlon Brando, etc.) as well as right-wingers (Rust Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Larry Elder, etc.) have attracted mass sympathy for these peoples. This works because it touches the politically-correctness sensitivieties of the Americans. After all, since the Native Americans and blacks were oppressed, and the Tibetans and Xinjiangese are in the same situation, the Han Chinese must be the perpetrators!

CHINA'S WEST IS NOT THE AMERICAN WEST

One especially disturbing aspect of the Tibet crusade in America is that Hollywood, academia, New Agers and the Washington establishment have drawn patently misleading parallels with American history. These comparisons of European immigrants to Han Chinese, and American Indians to Tibetan Chinese, have led to a grotesque collective misunderstanding.

This dangerously egocentric, even narcissistic way of experiencing the world may get America into deep foreign policy hot water. In fact, it has. When such historically irrelevant parallels are drawn what non-Chinese get is worse than ignorance. What non-Chinese get is the illusion of understanding.

Unfortunately most of what is readily available in English on the web regarding contemporary Tibet is predictable "Political Correctness" orthodoxy. The few rebuttals which are available in English are summarily dismissed by the intellectual orthodoxy as not credible simply because they are posted by Chinese or ethnic Chinese sources and do not support the "correct" conclusions.

Tibet is a region of China. It has been since the 13th century. Obviously one needs to refer to Chinese history and Chinese historians to learn about it. Most of that data is obviously going to be in Chinese. Yet it is only virulently anti-China Tibetan secessionist propaganda written in English which is automatically accorded the status of unassailable truth. The China bashers' attitude reeks of colonialist arrogance.

Far better to not know anything, and retain the humility that accompanies such ignorance, than to imagine that one knows all one needs to know to pass moral judgment and demand military intervention. As the old saw goes, "the problem isn't what people don't know, it's what they know that just ain't so."

TIBETAN CHINESE ARE NOT AMERICAN INDIANS

For example, projection of "collective guilt" over the mistreatment of American Indians is with little doubt the psychological root of most pro- Dalai activism. Unfortunately the pro-Dalai faction has confused its own internal psychology with a foreign nation's history.
Just because they feel "white guilt" about America's Indian minority does not mean that China's history actually conforms to their internal guilt and historical misunderstanding.
This is why so many western sympathizers of Tibetan independence are taken aback, stunned even, when they discover that most Tienanmen pro-democracy leaders do NOT support, and in fact vehemently oppose Tibetan and Taiwan independence. The sympathizers' projection has been so extensive that they are trapped in a "virtual reality" of their own making.

The relationship between majority Han-Chinese and minority Tibetan-Chinese does NOT historically parallel that of European-Americans and Native Americans. The territory of modern China includes Tibet not because "the Han-Chinese conquered Tibetan-Chinese" the way European-Americans conquered American Indians and Hawaiians. (E.g., "Dances with Wolves").

Instead both Tibetans and Hans were conquered by the Mongols under the leadership of Chenghis Khan and grandson Kublai Khan in the 13th century. When the Mongol or Yuan Dynasty collapsed a century later, it was supplanted by a Han-Chinese dominated Ming Dynasty, which inherited jurisdiction over the Mongol empire, including the Tibetan region. This is how Tibet, and of course Mongolia, became part of China.

Those who insist on "victim-victimizer" dichotomies might be tempted on leap to yet another equally simplistic conclusion, that "both Tibetans and Hans were victims of Mongol aggression." This ignores the fact that both "victims" and "victimizers" subsequently intermarried extensively, not under duress, but of their own volition, rendering the issue of victimization moot and irrelevant. The bottom line is that Tibet was not "invaded" or "annexed" by China in 1959. Because by then the Tibetan region had been part of China for seven centuries, five centuries longer than these United States of America have even been in existence.

REDS, NOT RED HERRINGS

The false equation of Tibetan-Chinese with American Indian has predictably led to the false attribution of racist motivations to Beijing's abolition of serfdom and crushing of Tibetan secession. Beijing's Tibet policies are being falsely equated with everything from Nazi genocide of Jews to Nato's allegations of Serbian "ethnic cleansing."

If one is determined to force the Chinese experience into an American mold, one could perhaps equate
the militarily powerful Mongols with one of the aggressive, nomadic tribes such as the Comanche, and
Tibetans and Hans with less aggressive, agrarian tribes such as the Hopi or Navahoe.
The point is that all of China's major ethnic subcultures are native Chinese, including so-called Hans.

Now that communism is dead, sympathizers of the Dalai Lama, many of whom were sympathizers of Mao Zedong, seem to have forgotten what communism was all about. Communism was a political ideology obsessed with economic equality. Communism adjudged who was good and who was bad on the basis of its fatally flawed economic theory. To communist true believers the relevant question was to which economic class do you belong. Are you a capitalist victimizer or a proletarian victim? Ethnicity to communism was always irrelevant. The Chinese Communists were no exception. They committed their atrocities because they were fanatical radical egalitarians, "coercive egalitarians." The Lamaist theocracy was targeted because it engaged in the economic exploitation of Tibet's serfs.

When Red Guards vandalized monasteries in Tibet they were doing precisely the same thing to Zen Buddhist monasteries, Taoist monasteries, Christian churches, Jewish synagogues all over the rest of China.
They were not doing anything so narrowly parochial as singling out the Tibetan subculture for "cultural genocide."
Rather they were motivated by disgust for what they perceived as vestiges of unjust economic systems throughout Tibet.

The Dalai Lama's allegation that Chinese Communist violence against Tibet's serf-owning elite was racially motivated ethnic cleansing is a red herring. Chinese Communists were evil because they were coercive egalitarians. Chinese Communists were never racist.

IF THIS BE GENOCIDE, MAKE THE MOST OF IT

In fact if the Chinese Communists, CCP, had really been intent on committing genocide, they could have deliberately and cynically left Tibet's Ancient Regime in place.

Traditional Tibet's theocracy imposed a policy of "er xuan yi" (from two choose one) and "san xuan ER" (from three choose two) on the Tibetan people. They dragooned enormous numbers of hapless Tibetan boys into the priesthood , where they would remain celibate for life. This draconian policy resulted in an alarming decline in Tibet's population in recent centuries.

Adherence to a religious practice of strict celibacy led to the eventual extinction of the Shaker sect in America.
CCP's non- intervention in China's Tibetan region would have, by default, abetted a similar process of Tibetan self-extinction.
CCP intervention has instead led to a population increase. Yet Beijing is ritually and reflexively accused by self-styled do-gooders of "genocide," both "cultural" and racial. Ironies abound
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#22 adoo, Jul 6, 2009
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How come it is a race riot?
it is a peaceful protest against communists according to the "sources".

"denying freedom of religious practice............"

I agree with you that it is enough reason to deny the lives of those Hans and more.

Hans should not be allowed to live in Xinjiang even though they can work or live in Taiwan, USA or Japan.

Racism, terrorism, ethnic cleansing and Hitlers are good when they are against Chinese and communists.

#23 redao, Jul 6, 2009
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Link

Han Chinese vow revenge after deadly riots: AFP

URUMQI, China (AFP) – Thousands of Han Chinese protesters armed with makeshift weapons have marched through China's Urumqi city vowing revenge after ethnic unrest claimed 156 lives, an AFP reporter witnessed.

The crowd, estimated by the AFP journalist to be at least 10,000-strong, converged on central Urumqi with many carrying poles, chains, machetes and bats.

Police fired tear gas repeatedly at the protesters but they refused to disperse, according to the AFP reporter.

Police were blocking them from getting through to an area of Urumqi populated by Muslim Uighurs, who authorities have blamed for riots on Sunday that left 156 people dead and more than 1,000 injured.

"The Uighurs came to our area to smash things, now we are going to their area to beat them," one protester, who was carrying a metal pipe, told AFP.

Some of the Han Chinese protesters were carrying national flags, while many were chanting "safeguard the people" and "unity", in reference to national unity.

The state-run Xinhua news agency indicated there were similar scenes in other parts of Urumqi, which is the capital of China's remote northwest Xinjiang region.

"Chaos was seen in a number of places in Urumqi on Tuesday afternoon," the official Xinhua news agency reported.

The Xinjiang region has long experienced simmering ethnic tensions, with the eight million Uighurs complaining about the influx of Han Chinese into what they regard as their homeland, as well as political and cultural repression.

Before the rallies started, Shao Yi, 19, was shopping in a supermarket when security staff told everyone to evacuate because of the imminent danger.

"I just ran as fast as I could from the second floor to get out," Shao said.

"The electricity went out and everything went black, it was really scary."

#24 UberDork, Jul 7, 2009
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Gruesome video taken by a Korean TV station

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/psm8CG0MzTU&hl=zh_TW&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/psm8CG0MzTU&hl=zh_TW&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

#25 ymc, Jul 7, 2009
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The world really need a reporting agency which is reporting the fact.

#26 celesti, Jul 7, 2009
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celesti said:

The world really need a reporting agency which is reporting the fact.
Click to expand...

#27 jkd2004, Jul 7, 2009

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I tell u guys
90% of uygurs are thieves.I‘m not kidding.

#28 jkd2004, Jul 7, 2009
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adoo said:

Instead both Tibetans and Hans were conquered by the Mongols under the leadership of Chenghis Khan and grandson Kublai Khan in the 13th century. When the Mongol or Yuan Dynasty collapsed a century later, it was supplanted by a Han-Chinese dominated Ming Dynasty, which inherited jurisdiction over the Mongol empire, including the Tibetan region. This is how Tibet, and of course Mongolia, became part of China.
Click to expand...

Wait... so you are saying that because both China and Tibet were conquered by the Mongols, and the Mongol empire collapsed the Chinese have the right to rule over Tibet?? That is strange logic to me.

So since the Netherlands and Belgium were once conquered by Spain, and we got rid of them Belgium is in fact part of the Netherlands. Oh lets increase this, The Netherlands and Poland were conquered by the Germans, since the Germans lost the war, Poland should be part of the Netherlands. Yeah this is definitely logically

That being said, why do people tend to see only black and white? Either the Chinese media is lying or the Western media is lying. Either the CCP is brilliant or they are pure evil. Humans tend not to be black or white, but more a shade of grey.

jkd2004 are you trying to hurt your case with comment like your previous post? Showing such a prejudice is not a good way to have a civilised discussion.

#29 arno_ed, Jul 7, 2009
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arno_ed said:

Wait... so you are saying that because both China and Tibet were conquered by the Mongols, and the Mongol empire collapsed the Chinese have the right to rule over Tibet?? That is strange logic to me.

So since the Netherlands and Belgium were once conquered by Spain, and we got rid of them Belgium is in fact part of the Netherlands. Oh lets increase this, The Netherlands and Poland were conquered by the Germans, since the Germans lost the war, Poland should be part of the Netherlands. Yeah this is definitely logically

That being said, why do people tend to see only black and white? Either the Chinese media is lying or the Western media is lying. Either the CCP is brilliant or they are pure evil. Humans tend not to be black or white, but more a shade of grey.

jkd2004 are you trying to hurt your case with comment like your previous post? Showing such a prejudice is not a good way to have a civilised discussion.
Click to expand...

I‘ve been stolen by them for 3 times，come to shanghai ，I’ll show u why we hate them.
BTW，watch this：mms://cdn.seoul.co.kr/seoulnews/090707_sinjang.wmv

#30 jkd2004, Jul 7, 2009
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arno_ed said:

Wait... so you are saying that because both China and Tibet were conquered by the Mongols, and the Mongol empire collapsed the Chinese have the right to rule over Tibet?? That is strange logic to me.

So since the Netherlands and Belgium were once conquered by Spain, and we got rid of them Belgium is in fact part of the Netherlands. Oh lets increase this, The Netherlands and Poland were conquered by the Germans, since the Germans lost the war, Poland should be part of the Netherlands. Yeah this is definitely logically

That being said, why do people tend to see only black and white? Either the Chinese media is lying or the Western media is lying. Either the CCP is brilliant or they are pure evil. Humans tend not to be black or white, but more a shade of grey.

jkd2004 are you trying to hurt your case with comment like your previous post? Showing such a prejudice is not a good way to have a civilised discussion.
Click to expand...

dude i understand what u said，and i agree with u，but they really pissed us off

#31 jkd2004, Jul 7, 2009
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It's worth pointing out now a key rhetorical device which the CCP and its backers often employ in this - unsuccessfully - which is to try to affiliate the Uighurs (or the Hues, or any other muslim) with Al Qaeda and other Islamic terrorist cells.

Simply wanting greater autonomy from China (as do many ethnic Mongols, Miao/Hmong, Tibetans, etc etc etc among the various occupied regions of the Chinese empire) and being Muslim doesn't render one into a radical Wahabbist Al Qaeda sympathizer. THere are many groups of muslims demanding greater autonomy and self-rule (see, e.g., the Kurds in northern Iraq). That doesn't make them sympathetic with the aims of Al Qaeda and other affiliated groups.

Al Qaeda's goals, loosely, are to force the west to withdraw from the mideast, install radical sunni theocracy, and essentially restore the 11th century Caliphate to all muslim lands, stretching from Pakistan in the east to Spain in the West.

Those goals are patently absurd, and if you asked most Uighur "separatists" if that was their aim, they'd probably figure you were an insane person.

#32 SamFisher, Jul 7, 2009
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it doesn't seem like this violence is one sided. at least not anymore.

But soon afterward, news reports said, hundreds of Han Chinese threw rocks and smashed shops owned by Uighurs, ignoring police who appealed to them over loudspeakers to disperse. At one point, some 300 Han Chinese marchers seemed to be heading toward a mosque, only to face clouds of tear gas, news reports said. And at one point, rival groups of protesters clashed until riot police moved in to set up a barrier between them, cheered on by Han Chinese protesters, Reuters reported.
Click to expand...

times

#33 insane man, Jul 7, 2009

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Politics aside you can't argue that what happened is a crime, though. You guys seem to be arguing that this was justified.

#34 Xenon, Jul 7, 2009
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First, it's not against you personally as I am as raged when reading some other replies. Let me say this, to the hell of you apathetic people who is still patronizing at this. Now I am almost ashamed of myself that I once felt sorry for 911 victims after reading those words you guys spitted.

I am not fond of CCP and I know well that the tensions between Han and minorities have plenty of blame to go with CCP as well as normal Chinese (yes, bigotry/ignorance a factor too but it goes both ways). But there are lines that once it's crossed, you don't want to side with the initiators. You don't go after civilians, especially women and children, especially killing them face to face. As a father of a newborn, you can imagine my rage when seeing photos of a 2-3 years girl laying on the ground in a pool of blood, obviously beaten to death.

I know you guys will say it's caused by this and that, but please, don't even think comparing it to the brawl in Guang Dong. It actually started with a few Uighur laborers molesting a Han girl passing by, and combined with previous tensions (rape rumor not confirmed), a brawl broke out. More Uighur workers died/injured not because the Han workers ambushed but simply outnumbered. And they specifically let go the girls.

I once felt there is a bottom line in human nature and communication always can help breaking the barrier, even arguing at time. But I am just so sad and frustrated today that I have to say: QNMD, let there be blood shed when deserved.

SamFisher said:

The PRC is apparently the only autocratic police state in the world with a 2 milion man PLA and probably millions more of police forces that manages to get routinely run out of town by marauding hordes of a few hundred dirt poor stone and bottle throwing Tibetan and Uighur villagers and slum dwellers.......poor china.

Maybe you should go to crowd control school.

And by the way, maybe somebody should mention the cause of the demonstration - the beating deaths of Uighur laborers in a Guangzhou toy factory.
Click to expand...

#35 davidwu, Jul 7, 2009
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For all you wanting CCP out, if a democratically elected Chinese government takes place of CCP, you can bet the minorities in Tibet and Xingjian will be teated far worse then they are now.

#36 pirc1, Jul 7, 2009
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Han retaliation....

#37 ymc, Jul 7, 2009
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ymc said:

Han retaliation....

Click to expand...

From NPR radio interview the Hans apprently think the government won't or cannot protect them. They are forming their own protection groups. Things could really get out of hand. The police are trying to keep the two sides apart currently.

#38 pirc1, Jul 7, 2009

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Smashing a few shops as revenge justifies the cold-blooded murdering before that? Even you Christians won't turn the other cheek after that.

insane man said:

it doesn't seem like this violence is one sided. at least not anymore.

times
Click to expand...

#39 davidwu, Jul 7, 2009
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davidwu said:

First, it's not against you personally as I am as raged when reading some other replies. Let me say this, to the hell of you apathetic people who is still patronizing at this. Now I am almost ashamed of myself that I once felt sorry for 911 victims after reading those words you guys spitted.

I am not fond of CCP and I know well that the tensions between Han and minorities have plenty of blame to go with CCP as well as normal Chinese (yes, bigotry/ignorance a factor too but it goes both ways). But there are lines that once it's crossed, you don't want to side with the initiators. You don't go after civilians, especially women and children, especially killing them face to face. As a father of a newborn, you can imagine my rage when seeing photos of a 2-3 years girl laying on the ground in a pool of blood, obviously beaten to death.

I know you guys will say it's caused by this and that, but please, don't even think comparing it to the brawl in Guang Dong. It actually started with a few Uighur laborers molesting a Han girl passing by, and combined with previous tensions (rape rumor not confirmed), a brawl broke out. More Uighur workers died/injured not because the Han workers ambushed but simply outnumbered. And they specifically let go the girls.

I once felt there is a bottom line in human nature and communication always can help breaking the barrier, even arguing at time. But I am just so sad and frustrated today that I have to say: QNMD, let there be blood shed when deserved.
Click to expand...

You are letting Sam Fisher's hate for China speak for everyone here? Do you understand how absurd that is? Most reasonable can see that what happened there is way way over the line.

#40 Xenon, Jul 7, 2009

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