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Yao's Value

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by linzhihao, Mar 23, 2008.

  1. choujie

    choujie Member

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    You don't believe Bucks would trade there #1 pick and something else for Yao? You think Pat Riley would not trade it straight up for anybody but lebron ? It shows what YOU THINK is worthless.

    How quickly people forgot Rockets' #1 pick almost got traded to get Lamar Odom if Yao couldn't come to NBA. Now to mention There is no Lebron or Yao in this draft. Not even Oden.
     
  2. plutoblue11

    plutoblue11 Member

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    This is the point was bringing up earlier; teams usually don’t get that much better, especially when swapping for superstars….most teams try to get better from top to bottom if they trade for superstars: examples Seattle Mariners 2001 and Detroit Pistons 02 to now.

    Teams already know they will get worst, if they trade a superstar, for lesser pieces, but they do realize they are building the team from top to bottom and will try to get good supplementary players, good young prospects, and draft picks.

    Let’s say Chicago deals MJ for Ewing around 91 - 94………
    Chicago ends up with a big man that they’ve always dreamed about:
    Lineup:
    Ewing, Grant, Pippen, TBA SG, Armstrong…..Phil is still the coach…..Chicago is still the premier team in the East….the roster is definitely capable of winning the whole thing and you know have the best front court in the NBA, one of the top 5 centers in the league, all-star caliber PF, and the best SF in the game (most versatile offensive player and defensive player), Scottie Pippen…you pick up decent SG with B.J. at PG. The Bulls are still the favorites to win.

    New York’s Lineup:
    TBA C, Oakley, Mason, Jordan, and Rivers (Harper or Anthony). That’s pretty good team, probably top of the conference maybe good enough to win the East, but those that team beat the Bulls or even the Cavs.

    You realize the Knicks took the Bulls to 7 games twice, they were pretty evenly matched, New York gains killer instinct player, dominate scorer, and refuse to lose player, but they lose a good rebounder, great post presence (off/def), easy baskets, and etc.

    Both teams are probably where they were at the time, but basically being slightly better or slightly worse.

    It’s a stalemate trade, because each team really doesn’t get a strong benefit from that.

    Now let’s see the second example

    Example: Chicago has just won its third championship in a row and second three peat, but M.J. and the Bulls are still at odds. Only difference…..#23 still wants to play. Chicago is about to do unimaginable trade… Michael Jeffery Jordan….but both are at odds. Pippen has already been shipped out. Rodman is still on the fence. But, we do know for sure that MJ is about to be traded.

    Top Deals coming from Charlotte , Portland, Washington, and Milwaukee.

    The best deal is in Milwaukee (who is given up the most for MJ): Ray Allen, Glen Robinson, 9th pick in 1st Round (98), 1st and 2nd in next years draft (99).

    MJ agrees, and is paid a record deal 35 million per year by the Bucks and promises to lead them to playoffs and into the promise land.

    While the Bulls end up with little old Ray Allen, Glen Robinson, and a boatload of draft picks (3 to be exact along with yours that totals about 6 for the next two years)
    Bulls know look like this:
    C- Longley (stays put)
    PF-Rodman (still on the fence)/Kukoc
    SF-Robinson
    SG-Allen
    PG-Harper

    Chicago still has playoff team, if Rodman comes back and the Draft hasn’t happened yet.

    The Bulls (9th pick from Milwaukee) are looking at:
    Larry Hughes (8th Pick)
    Dirk Nowitzki (9th pick)
    Paul Pierce (10th pick)
    Bonzi Wells (11th pick)
    Matt Harpring (12th pick)
    Rasho Nestrovic (17th pick)
    Al Harrington (25th pick)
    Rashard Lewis (32nd pick)
    Cuttino Mobley

    Teams know that you are always look to trade, but most of the deals are not that serious only two deals really stand out to you:

    Phoenix offers Danny Manning, Steve Nash for 9th Pick
    LA wants a straight up deal for Nick Van Exel (who is not wanted too much anymore).

    Either way you go, you going to end up with really good player. You don’t really need SG or SF, Allen and Robinson are both all-stars, so it is not a big priority…but Pierce and Wells look really impressive….but you say you need PF in case Rodman decides to bolt, so it is looking like you’re going to get Dirk Nowitzki. But they are mum about and are in serious talk with LA to do draft day trade for Van Exel. Nowitzki is solid young, talented basketball player, but he is not great rebounder or defender you are looking for and Rodman is about to come to the table with last offer. Rodman is going to sign the deal and you decide to trade for Van Exel. And let’s say since you just did something very not smart….God rewards and you end up picking Rashard Lewis.

    98-99 Bulls:
    Starting Lineup
    C-Longley/Bryant
    PF-Rodman
    SF-Robinson/Lewis
    SG-Allen
    PG-Van Exel

    That’s pretty decent team and even a team that could challenge for the Eastern crown….I think they win more than 13 games even in the season of the strike and end up as 4th seed in East, while M.J. leads the Bucks to 6th in the East.

    Next year, you end up with 17th pick in the draft…you have a chance at Ron Artest, Andrei Kirlenko, Kenny Thomas, and if you keep your eyes open Manu Ginobili.

    If you managed to get one of those four players….you have a chance to dominate the East, since Knicks and Pacers are both aging fast, and Miami losing Alonzo Mourning to injuries.

    Only problem is when you get to Finals, you have to deal with LA team that doesn’t only have Shaq and Kobe….third wheel happens to be a quickly emerging hot-shooting, high scoring, long range Dirk Nowitzki.

    So superstar trades can do a lot for the league, if they’re done right, you definitely get more out of it, if you go for maybe one of their all-stars, good role players, and as many draft picks as possible….because of all of talent coming from High School and International players….the NBA is becoming like the NFL where it matters to have as many draft picks as possible, lately they’re have been a lot of quality players at the end of first round all the way to mid second.
     
  3. rfila

    rfila Member

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  4. CometsWin

    CometsWin Breaker Breaker One Nine

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    That's a stupid rule. Kobe > Yao Ming just like Jordan > Ewing.
     
  5. CometsWin

    CometsWin Breaker Breaker One Nine

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    Evidence? Please.



    The trade would have been Kobe and Bynum for Yao and Battier plus whatever had to be throwin in to make it work. Also, TMac is much more a SF than a shooting guard. Kobe and TMac would play fine together and Bynum would fill the hole at the 5 just like Battier could fill the void in LA's backcourt.


    Kobe has three more championship rings than Yao Ming and he can control a game like Yao can't. He can score better than Yao, he can defend better than Yao, he is a better creator than Yao... he does everything better than Yao. It's not even a case to be made that they're players on the same level. They're not. Kobe is head and shoulders a better player than Yao Ming, he's much more experienced than Yao, and he has shown far more desire to win than Yao has ever shown. I'd take Kobe and all his attitude over Yao's good guy image any day, especially on this team right now.

    A manager builds a team around the best players available period. You don't select "fit" players as the cornerstone of your franchise. That's ridiculous.
     
  6. CometsWin

    CometsWin Breaker Breaker One Nine

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    Totally bogus. How many teams since 1998 have had 2 league scoring champions and 2 All-NBA first team players on the same team that weren't big men? Fact is you cannot name in the last, I dunno 25 years, a duo in their primes as prolific as Kobe and TMac. Kobe and TMac on the same team with the role players we have would tear up this league.

    BTW, Shaq's title in Miami was much more DWade than Shaq. He was the Finals MVP and averaged over 30+ during that series.
     
  7. SuperStar

    SuperStar Member

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    That's cuz Shaq draws all the attention and thus allow guards like Kobe and Wade to get way eaiser looks. Shaq is the biggest mismatch for any team.


    The whole dominant big man thing is needed and all but Yao hasn't really shown that dominance in the post season yet. With quotes like "Predictable" comming from his opponents, it's hard to call him dominant.
     
  8. leebigez

    leebigez Contributing Member

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    That's why I say people ovevalue yao, just like they overvalued francis a few yrs back. Yao is Brad Daughtery good, not shaq or hakeem dominate presence. I do believe its easier to win with a dominant post, but that's not yao. If he was, why he hasn't ever been mentioned in a league mvp vote? Why he's never been 1st team all nba ? From Shaq 2nd yr on he was always in the mix or mentioned as mvp.

    You're right great post guys make the game easier. We must stress the word great. Duncan and Shaq were great in every sense of the word.Duncan was drafted and 2 yrs later, he took a softie like robinson to the finals and won. Shaq took penny to the finals. After he left, the magic had to purge their roster to get tracy and grant hill. La was in the lotto once Shaq was traded and haven't won a series since he left despite having a top 2 player. Shaq was great though, there is a difference.

    To the guy talking about jordan and ewing. You did a great job with all the variables, but what u left out was jordan is probably the best closer and the best player to play in the nba. Chicago trading jordan for anyone made no sense. You can have your variable lineups, but jordan was, jordan.
     
  9. spydermex

    spydermex Member

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    before he broke his leg last year Yao was getting a lot MVP consideration.
     
  10. liberty

    liberty Member

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    The most ridiculous thing is why someone want to trade Kobe with Yao but not T-mac? It should be reasonable with their position. There salary also is more closed.

    Don't tell me that no team want T-mac. If that, why do you think it is better that Kobe plays with T-mac than with Yao? Two 20 millions are bigger than 20+13 millions? :D
     
  11. badgerfan

    badgerfan Member

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    So in other words your argument would be that it's never been tried, so why not? Real convincing.

    The Nuggets have two prolific scorers at the guard and forward in Iverson and Carmelo Anthony. Last I checked they weren't even in the playoff picture.

    And it looks to me like Miami's been in decline ever since Shaq's health became an issue and he can no longer draw huge amounts of attention in the paint.

    Coincidentally, LA's also sucked ever since Shaq left until this year with the rise of Bynum and the acquisition of Gasol.
     
  12. badgerfan

    badgerfan Member

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    It's probably just as accurate to say that you couldn't get a Yao for any of the players you listed, or that you probably couldn't get a Howard for a Wade. There's a small group of players around the league who aren't going anywhere and like it or not at this point that includes Yao Ming. Guys his size who can do what he does are freaks of nature.

    Although rumor is that Lebron will be out of Cleveland when his contract expires.
     
  13. badgerfan

    badgerfan Member

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    You can spout opinions as much as you like, but the reality is that Yao gets a consistent double team in the paint game after game. When he doesn't, like in the Hornets game, he's perfectly capable of putting up crazy numbers. Check out the blog post from Scola that Pryuen posted up here a while back.

    A double in the paint means everybody else on the court has the opportunity to get an open look at the basket. That's what counts, and that's why Yao is so valuable. If you do double him you're screwed, and if you don't double him you're screwed.
     
  14. ibm

    ibm Member

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    i didn't invent that rule. many bball experts agree on that. call calvin murphy for example and see what he has to say about this stupid rule.

    if you want just say kobe>yao and feel good about it (and maybe youself too), then by all means do it. do it a hundred times a day for all i care.

    jordan>ewing? sure. how about another comparison of jordan and wilt comparison? jerry west and hakeem?
     
  15. ibm

    ibm Member

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    riiight. see denver. # freaking 9.
     
  16. ibm

    ibm Member

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    over- or under-, it's all relative. some "experts" have said yao'd never score 20. relative, see?

    you're entitled to your opinion on that one. i'd wait until yao retires to have an assessment. he may come back next year totally busted, or he may come back strong and win titles and mvp's. who knows? remember, centers tend to peak at about yao's current age.

    you do believe? that's good. at least we have some common ground.

    just not yao? a yao with a foot fracture can torch chandler with 28-14 when single covered (and also limit chandler to 9-9). and chandler ain't no loren woods. if that's not dominance, i don't know what is.

    under double coverage most of the time, playing with new rules that hakeem and shaq never had to face, and still getting 22/10.8/2/2 is a testament to yao's game. if that's not good enough for you, that's not enough for you. and that's the very reason why yao has not been recognized enough by the league and the media.

    i'm sorry, i've lost interest to debunk the rest of your post. but i got your point - shaqs and duncans are great, just not yao. that's fine with me. i ain't your mentor, i'm not here to change your opinion.
     
  17. DaRock1

    DaRock1 Member

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    Lee, what you said makes sense to me and I truly respect your opinion. But please do not lower yourself to quote this fool called Superstar (sometimes he uses another lame handle 'jonhty'). The fool is a certified Yao hater because of non basketball reasons. If you still do not know that, just do a search on the previous post of 'Superstar' and 'jonhty'. This fool is just 'using' you and your thread to foster his own little agenda. I would feel insulted to be endorsed by this fool. There is a reason why he is still a 'rookie' after 1,000 posts after all.
     
  18. DaRock1

    DaRock1 Member

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  19. OldManBernie

    OldManBernie Old Fogey

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  20. leebigez

    leebigez Contributing Member

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    IBM- I don't know how long you have watched the nba, but if u think they play physicall now, go watch late 80's, 90's hoops. Its was brutal. You could have 2 hands in the small of a guys back.'

    Yes yao served chandler and phoenix and a few others, but 28 and 14 was shaq's avg his 2nd yr in the league while shooting 60% from the field.

    Shaq in my opinion is the most fouled big man in the history, yet every year he led the league in ft attempts every yr.

    Honestly, he should drop those numbers every game against a guy 7 foot 225lbs. I mean is that asking to much to dominate guys 5 inches shorter and 80lbs heavier?

    When I say brad daughtery good, I mean in the context of big men. Daughtery was good before his back went out. He was 20-10-2-4asst.He played on some very good cavs teams and made all star games. The thing that seperated him other than his back from say Ewing and Dream was just nastiness. Its the same thing yao is missing and that was always the only question about yao on the court.

    This is just my opinion as is like other replies in the thread. If yao was dominate, the rox would be out of the 1st rd regardless. When a guy like boozer cancels out your production, your not dominating. That was last yr.

    New players, new system this year prior to injuries. When guys can play you close to a draw, you're not dominate. The rox are scoring just as many points in the paint as they did yao.Btw, if you have slashers and penetrators, you can dominate the paint that way.

    I think when people say the rox have the best center in hoops and we're still winning without him and went 20-12 without him, how do u put a value on that? The lakers during the shaq era was 48% winning when he was out. I'm happy that the rox do have a legit post player,but I guess I was expecting a guy with that size and skill would kill guys on a nightly basis. In the 4th, I thought his sheer size and skill would just wear guys down. All in all I'm happy to have yao on the rox.
     

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