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Yao's Value

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by linzhihao, Mar 23, 2008.

  1. badgerfan

    badgerfan Member

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    The Rockets have had problems integrating Yao into the offense in the past, there's no question about it. But the reason I'm so high on Adelman is that for the first time this season it looked to me like Yao and his teammates were actually working together in the offense. I don't think the intent really changed all that much from Van Gundy but the execution certainly has. Yao is the inside part of the inside-out game. As individuals go he's the most important single piece on the team. Again, if you had to make a choice between the two franchise players it's going to be hard to argue with the Hall of Famers and not stick with Yao. Given this year though I'd argue against breaking up the core.

    As for the playoff situation Yao's spent his entire career in the NBA playing with other All Star caliber players, first Francis and then T-Mac. There's one way to find out if Yao could drag a bunch of scrubs into the playoffs behind him but I'm skeptical that Alexander is going to allow that experiment to happen.

    It's also way too early to write the book on Yao's injuries. This is the first time he's missed significant games due to an injury that's legitimately related to overwork instead of a freak accident.

    Finally, Kenny, Charles and Magic are not like the posters on this board. Not even close.
     
  2. ibm

    ibm Member

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    rule #1 when comparing players - don't compare players that play different positions.
     
  3. leebigez

    leebigez Contributing Member

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    It doesn't matter. If u have a chance to get a mvp, hof 29 yr old kobe for yao, u do that 100 out of 100 times regardless of the position. Kobe is a better player no matter what position u are comparing him too.
     
  4. badgerfan

    badgerfan Member

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    I'd rather have Shaq. Elite basketball starts with the center.
     
  5. ibm

    ibm Member

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    mvp? kobe has none as of now. hof? not yet. but that's beyond the point.

    i think kobe was indeed available at the beginning of the season when the lakers owner temporarily lost his mind. the bulls were in serious talks with the lakers, remember? so if kobe was availbale, how come morey, our brilliant gm, didn't consider a yao-kobe trade, since "u do that 100 out of 100 times regardless of the position"? i encourage you to ask morey that next time he's on the air on 610.

    suppose a trade of yao-kobe str8 up did happen, we'd have a lineup of

    deke
    scola
    mcgrady
    kobe
    rafer

    does that lineup have a better shot at the title? i think not.

    but again, i wasn't even talking about yao, or who is a better player b/w him and kobe. i just think it won't make a lot of sense if you compare players who don't play the same positions.
     
  6. plutoblue11

    plutoblue11 Member

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    By that logic, do you trade Jordan for someone like Ewing or Mourning? As great as Jordan was, do you give up center who gives 20 ppg and 10 rebs, so easily. Even though, he might be a better player, lesser center can sometimes to do more for a team than a better wing player.

    I know it is hard for some people to realize how important it is to having a center who can actually play....it changes the whole game. A center changes the game on both sides of the floor more so than a guard, as great as scorer Kobe is, he can do same things on defense that Yao can. Like Jordan, he can't keep players away from the basket for the whole game unless he is shutting them down on the wing.

    Again, basketball is dominated by great center over the last 25 years, the only teams to win a title without a great big man, were the Pistons three times and the Bulls and both had great team defense at every other position and/or deep rotations.

    It is much harder to win with great wing player than it is with a good center.
     
  7. liberty

    liberty Member

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    Who knows better about Yao's Value? T-mac. Just like Jason Kidd, do you think he can get another big contract in the future if he need carry a team all by himself?
     
  8. plutoblue11

    plutoblue11 Member

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    i think that is great wing of players, but I just don't see them getting past SA and possibly Utah.

    Look what happens to LA

    C-Yao
    PF-Bynum
    SF-Odom
    SG-Hard to say
    PG-Fisher


    No Kobe, but LA actually doesn't drop off that much.....they would have dominate front court, much better than one with Gasol.

    They would basically have the two of the best centers in basketball, and a little more money to spend since Kobe's big contract is gone. they can go out and get SG and possibly another PG, say end up with someone like Brandon Roy, Andre Igoudala, Ben Gordon - Kirk Hinirich or etc.

    That team would be about equal and possibly better than Houston.
     
  9. plutoblue11

    plutoblue11 Member

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    I think in way though, both sides really wouldn't gain anything by the trade.

    It would be more of a stalemate kind of trade....Lakers lose scoring, but gain rebounding, defense, a player who doesn't demand the ball as much, and still demands double teams (who puts Yao single coverage).

    Houston gains a better scorer, more clutch shooter, and greater player, but lose defense in paint, good big man, rebounds, and possibly team chemistry.


    I doubt Kobe surrenders shots, like Yao does.
     
  10. ibm

    ibm Member

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    ain't that the truth...

    bball 101 in my book. but surprisingly many disagree or have doubts.
     
  11. plutoblue11

    plutoblue11 Member

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    Don't get me wrong I think M.J. is possibly one of the greatest athletes of all time and the best basketball player. Probably my all time favorite player.

    But if there is a draft of players with all of HOFs and all-stars and I had the first pick.

    I don't think I would take M.J. In fact, I think would go after Wilt, Olajuwon, Shaq, and Kareem before I do M.J. I know I would get some hate mail, but I think if the team is weak....I think those four could do alot more with bad talent than M.J. In discussion I had a few years ago, when M.J. was with the Wizards, I said to someone, I doubt the Wizards could even make the playoffs with M.J. circa 87-93. I think Wilt, Olajuwon, and etc could get that same team to playoffs and possibly the second round.

    Like now, in a league wide draft, I would think Kobe is the best player clearly, but I might not take him first....go Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Yao (barring injuries), and Dwight Howard. Again the argument is about wing players, they're alot of wing players that give you 25 ppg to 30 ppg, look at how many players have done that over the last 5 or 6 years....it is at least 20.

    At the same time, how many players can give you 20ppg, 10 rebs, and 2 blks.
     
  12. Tree Rollins

    Tree Rollins Member

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    ESPN doesn't think Yao is "significant".

    Injury Report
    SACRAMENTO
    · Beno Udrih PG - Mar 22: Day-to-Day
    · Ron Artest SF - Mar 21: Day-to-Day
    · Brad Miller C - Mar 21: Day-to-Day
    · Spencer Hawes C - Mar 21: Day-to-Day
    HOUSTON
    No significant injuries


    Also, they can't count. They think 6 Games Back - 1 GB = 4 games difference.

    "Despite their remarkable run, the Rockets will likely need a strong finish to guarantee a playoff berth. They're only four games ahead of Denver -- the West's ninth-place team."

    http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/preview?gameId=280324010
     
  13. plutoblue11

    plutoblue11 Member

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    ESPN = Rocket Hater #1
     
  14. abc2007

    abc2007 Member

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    :rolleyes: :D

     
  15. linzhihao

    linzhihao Member

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    About the definition of "franchise player", like I had said in previous post, you have the right to insist on your own understanding, but I just can't agree with you, and I don't see how other people agreeing with you either. Unless you can pull out some credit source to backup your definition, please stop this meaningless argument. Plus, this thread was never about whether Yao is a "franchise player" or not, you brought that up out of nowhere.

    I'm not sure if that was Kupchak, because the reporter Yang, Yi didn't mention the name. But due to the Fact that he is a much more insider than normal fans like you and me, I'm 100% believe in this story. Plus, it also makes sense, when Buss put Kobe on the market, if Yao can't satisfy him, then whom do you think he was expecting to get? And I can also see why Morey turned it down, because Kobe and Tmac play the same position, if we change Yao for Kobe, then we will have a huge hole in 5 and waste of talent in 2. Then the whole team needs to be rebuilt again. Let me remind you, the game is on 5, not about individual show, specially in today's brutal west. I don't know why you think so high about Kobe, but lots of Lakers fans dislike his ballhogging, untrust to teammates, and ill-advised shootings etc. Yes, this guy is the most talented player in the League, but that doesn't qualify him as the best component of a TEAM. When a manager builds a team, he should always pick the fittest not the mosted talented player available. So your player-oriented trade method fails at the beginning.

    Look at your posts in this thread. First you said Yao was more valuable to the league than to les because of revenue sharing, after I remined you that I was talking about Les's investment in China and you started to implied me as a "hater", then I asked for an explanation, now you again ignored my question and pulled out this nonsense personal attack aiming at "Yao's asian followers". If you think I'm one on these guys you are accusing, show me which word I said qualifies your accusation. If I'm not one of these guys, then why did you add this comment in the reply to me? Finally, how did you judge that these people are Asian? CAN'T YAO HAVE SOME AMERICAN FANS? Or do you have some special ability to tell people's origin? Just because it's internet, doesn't mean you can slander people at will !

    I don't see how givng Yao some recognizations is more irritating than kissing Kobe's ass and bashing Yao on a ROCKETS' FORUM ? Who questioned Houston Rockets's legitimacy ? Where did you get this horrible thinking from ? Out of your illusion ?

    You said you liked Yao in your posts, but all your posts are about depreciating Yao's value. If you don't feel bother to give Yao some credit, fine, stand aside and allow others to do so. Why is it so unbearable to listen some praise to the perosn "you like" ? Why don't you post all these Kobe's ass kissing articles to a Lakers's forum ? If this's the way how you express your "love" to Yao, then save it !

    Finally, next time you reply my post, instead of avoiding some unfavorable questions, please try to answer every part of my article like I did, Take responsibility for every word you said like a man !
     
  16. leebigez

    leebigez Contributing Member

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    IBM and pluto?, I like having a good center, but Kobe is a great player. If u were to ask every player or gm who is the best player in the entire league, kobe is 1 or 2.

    IBM- I respect ur thoughts, but if Kobe didn't play anther minute of hoops, he's a hof.

    Kobe for yao doesn't require any thought. Kobe has been 1st team all nba like 7 times vs 0 for yao. He's durable, plays good d, and is the best closer in hoops.

    If the centers are so imporatant, which I agree dominate center are, how come mj won 6 and zeke 2 during the greatest era of centers? From 84 till 98, Dream,ewing,kareem,moses,parish,zo,shaq,deke,and robinson all were good to great, yet mj and zeke has 8 in that 14 yr period. Who were their centers? Edward, king,longley,lambier,salley,williams, dele to name a few.

    If morey inquired about kobe, which I doubt and they asked for yao and turned it down, that not smart, period. The way the rules are set up, u can without a good big guy if u have a great player somewhere else.

    Do u honestly think la can win 10 in a row without kobe? There is a huge gap between yao as a player and kobe. It goes beyond the avg. Don't ask me, round up or e-mail 20 people that watch hoops and ask them. I'll bet they'll take kobe without even hesitating.
     
  17. badgerfan

    badgerfan Member

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    And from 98 to 08 how many champion teams have gotten away with not having a dominant big man? I count exactly one, possibly two.

    What's more Kareem and Parish shouldn't even be in that list you just offered up. They dominated the game during the '80's and were retired by the time MJ rolled around. Deke has never been that strong on the offensive side of the court. And Hakeem obviously got his championships--one of them against Ewing.

    Also, I don't know if you didn't watch much of the bad boys in the 1980's, but Laimbeer and Salley were nothing to laugh at.

    If the Lakers had traded Kobe to Miami for Wade and kept Shaq they probably would have won another championship. As it is Shaq went out and found a reasonable substitute for Kobe and got another ring. Kobe's been looking for another Shaq and has never gotten anywhere.
     
  18. ibm

    ibm Member

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    what is the point that we are debating? that kobe > yao individually? that i agree, no problem.

    but can you argue that it is easiER to win with a dominant big (which yao is) on a team than to have great wingman, everything else being equal? (hint: emphasis here is "easier".)

    all things have exceptions. of course there have been teams that won titles w/o a dominant big. but throughout the league history, recent or remote, how many teams have won titles w/ dominant bigs and how many w/o? i think it's a no brainer.
     
  19. tsunami

    tsunami Member

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    Great post! leebigez is owned.
     
  20. badgerfan

    badgerfan Member

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    I think the Kobe and Yao comparisons are problematic though. It's really apples and oranges. You don't expect Kobe to stand in the middle of the lane and swat away incoming shots or scoop up offensive rebounds under the basket. Centers aren't guards, and vice versa.

    The point about the importance of the center position is spot on though. If you're a Rockets fan then I don't think there's much question that if it came down to Yao or T-Mac you'd keep the big guy. Which one would be better for the franchise?
     

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