1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Yao's Value

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by linzhihao, Mar 23, 2008.

  1. leebigez

    leebigez Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2001
    Messages:
    15,511
    Likes Received:
    598
    Badgerfan- If a player beats his player and another player contests the shot, that good team defense, not double team. If a team dumps it in the post and that post guy shoots 44% with 4 to's a game, that means over half the time he's missing and turning the ball over.

    If a guy misses 87 games in the last 3 yrs, he's injury prone. To top that off, 2 season ending injuries.

    I like the concept of dumping down and waiting on doubles, but when the don't or they double late, u gotta make them pay. We all know against the jazz, no one played well enough to beat a team that really has more talent than you. After game 3, the jazz played yao one on one and once he got in shooting range, they contested. That's what all good defensive teams do.
     
  2. badgerfan

    badgerfan Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2007
    Messages:
    3,974
    Likes Received:
    3
    1) How does Kirilenko coming in from the blind side and picking Yao's pocket before he makes his move somehow equate to Yao beating Okur? That's not what I remember happening.

    2) So let's say somebody slams a car door on Shaq's foot. The next year he slips and falls while trimming the branches of a tree in his yard and breaks something. Are you going to cut or trade him?

    What you seem to be unable or unwilling to understand is that there's a difference between freak accidents and stress injuries. This year is the first time that Yao's come down with the latter.

    3) And again, that's not what I remember from the Jazz series. Yes, Okur did a great job of defending Yao one on one, but they still ran a second defender at him from the blind side all the time to try and throw him off balance. And despite all of Yao's troubles he still ended up averaging more than 20 ppg on the series.
     
  3. nolimitnp

    nolimitnp Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    3,490
    Likes Received:
    286
    Are you really comparing guards to centers? Wow.
     
  4. ibm

    ibm Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2007
    Messages:
    8,600
    Likes Received:
    60
    some just don't get that.

    kobe > yao if using loosely then i don't mind. but players of different positions really can't be compared str8 up. for example, kobe > yao? in what, scoring or rebounding? assists or blocking shots? 3's or jump hooks? dribble penetration or setting a screen? etc.

    for the same token, a comparison of players who played in TOTALLY different eras won't be a very good one. by totally different i meant in years that are far away, like the 60's and the 90's.
     
  5. leebigez

    leebigez Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2001
    Messages:
    15,511
    Likes Received:
    598
    Badgerfan- Go dust off the tapes. AK was blocking his shot. Okur was blocking his shot. Once he turned with a good shooting angle, someone would blk his shot. If people allowed dream or shaq to get into their shooting motion, its too late. When you double, u prevent the shot.

    As far as the freak injuries, if a player misses 87 games in 3 years, with 2 being season ending, you're injury prone. I'm not here to say yao is careless or has bad luck, but that toenail was probably infected in the summer. Why wasn't it taken care of then? Pretty every basktball player has jacked up toes. They get that way from people stepping on them or stopping and starting. In college every summer I had to get toenails removed or cleaned up.

    If yao didn't have a lot of those offseason cnt commitments, he probably wouldn't be overused at 37mins per in his 6th yr. There is a reason why shaq,kobe, and guys like that rest in the summer. played 82 plas playoffs then international ball is too much.
     
  6. badgerfan

    badgerfan Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2007
    Messages:
    3,974
    Likes Received:
    3
    1) I remember that too, but just because the Jazz sent help defense at him does not also mean that they didn't double him before the shot. Frankly, I consider sending a guy in from the blind side to steal the ball off the dribble or while Yao's holding it up in the air looking to pass as doubling. There's two defenders on one guy.

    2) His toenail wasn't infected, it was a bone infection due to him cleaning up his ingrown toenail improperly. Maybe if somebody slams a car door on your leg you're "injury prone" but there is a clear difference between that kind of injury and the back and joint problems that T-Mac's experiencing. One is just due to accidents. The second is more worrisome because it's due to wear and tear. The first isn't a big deal--do you think the Lakers are looking to deal Gasol or the Dallas is going to try to trade Dirk because they turned an ankle?

    One more time: two types of injuries. This is the first year that Yao's come down with something in that second, more serious category.

    3) Yeah, it would definitely be better for the Rockets, and Yao, if he didn't have to play over the summer.
     
  7. leebigez

    leebigez Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2001
    Messages:
    15,511
    Likes Received:
    598
    From my understanding, when teams double u, its not on the shot attempt. They double you to prevent the shot or getting the ball out of your hand. Once the guy rises up to shoot, that's not a double.

    When teams would double dream he would spin baseline and it was a uncontested shot. If they came baseline, he could come inside with the jump hook. If they double perfect, he had to kick it out to the shooters. I can say they same for shaq,duncan, and the other great pivots.

    If you get free of Okur and AK blocks you shot, either your bbiq is low, which I'm giving credit for have a good bbiq, or ur not finishing the play.
    Either way, they he was facing single coverage and u should make them pay. What Utah did was single Yao and tilt to Tracy. They didn't really double tracy, they just tilted coverage towards him and closed his lanes down and forced the other players to beat them. Going to coaching clinics, they played tracy with a man and a half. When the Howard and other played well, the rox won, when they didn't the rox lost.

    I remember the last time la was in the finals, the brass was mad at shaq because he waited till late summer to get his toes cleaned up. He missed some games, but it was done before the middle of the season. The invest the rox and china have in yao, you would think simple procedures dealing with Yaos feet would be done during the summer. Instead of playing and practicing and playing summer ball, those issues should be taken care of.

    On the record, its not that I'm in favor of trading yao if he was healthy and fully committed. I think yao is a great person and hard worker. I hope people doesn't take this in it literal sense, but u can't serve 2 masters. If we had an idea when the Yao would stop playing internatitional ball, then it would be easier to take and his body would hold up. If he continues to play international ball after the olympics and the yearly grind of the nba, he's done in 3 yrs. If that's what I'm looking at, I'd rather have Kaman,thomas, and a lotto pick. At least I'm pretty sure those guy will be able to give me 70 games and play at a very good level. I'll take the 16-13-and 3blks from Kaman, the tim thoma production and the lotto pick for 70 games for the next 5-7 than the 22-10-2 from yao for 50 games for the next 3. I'm not a future teller, but Yao can't continue to play yr around hoops.
     
  8. Alvin Choo

    Alvin Choo Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2007
    Messages:
    3,466
    Likes Received:
    152

    yeah, cuban for some court side fun. And having dirk, josh and jason as team mates for Yao.

    as for yao's value. He is the number 1 center in the world. He may be slow, but he makes up for it by being very very very tall. Everyone have its weakness, its up to his team mates to cover his weakness and exploit his strength. Meaning, for me, yao as franchise is as good as it gets. He might not be a LJ or a wade, but at least he is never rumored to be wanting to be away even when his team is not winning.
     
  9. badgerfan

    badgerfan Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2007
    Messages:
    3,974
    Likes Received:
    3
    1) Dream never had to worry about being doubled before he had the ball. That was an illegal defense when he was playing.

    As for getting blocked from the weak side, I'm pretty sure it happens all the time.

    2) So far as his feet go Yao was taking care of them himself. The same thing could happen to anybody. It was after the problem developed that he decided he was going to let the trainers handle it from then on. How big of a problem is an ingrown toenail? Do you run to the doctor every time you get one?

    3) Yeah, playing every summer is probably not the optimal solution. Then again this is the first year that Yao's come down with an injury related to stress/wear and tear. It's premature to argue that the yearlong schedule is going to result in a chronic problem with injuries. Unless of course you can sometimes read the future, in which case I would advise you to bet on the ponies and invest in the stock market instead of wasting your time posting to this BBS.
     
  10. badgerfan

    badgerfan Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2007
    Messages:
    3,974
    Likes Received:
    3
    And sending two guys at one guy before he takes his shot is a double team. Any other definition just invites madness.
     
  11. leebigez

    leebigez Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2001
    Messages:
    15,511
    Likes Received:
    598
    I don't have to be a fortune/future tell to say that playing 82 games, the playoffs, and summer ball, his career will be short and injury filled. It doesn't take rocket scientist to figure tht out. It a reason why so many nba players do the wc or olympics once. Manu didn't play this summer because his body was fatigued. If a 6'6 guy has hard time doing, what makes u think a guy a foot bigger and 100 lbs heavier can do it?

    I don't want this to go back to dream v. yao and the way the rules are set up. If dream was playing against this crop of centers, he would avg 30ppg. Also, dream never had a guy like mcgrady spoon feeding him either until clyde came here. When they double u with a 6'3 guy, that's not a double. When teams like seattle double dream, it was perkins/kemp double. Dream made the knicks who never doubled, double. Dream got double every minute on the floor and even then that wasn't enough.

    I'll admit, there are games when Yao is unstopable regardless of a double team. What's frustrating is he should be like that every game. He's the biggest guy in th league. There is no way against utah should he avg less than a blk, 4 to`s and 44% in the playoffs. Their best shotblocker is ak-47,not okur.
     
  12. badgerfan

    badgerfan Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2007
    Messages:
    3,974
    Likes Received:
    3
    The point is that this is the first year that Yao's come down with an injury that is symptomatic of wear and tear. I also have to wonder how much playing he really does do for the National team. Also, who knows how much playing he'll do in the summer in the future? He might privately request more time off, the Chinese National Team might come to its senses and give him more time off, etc. etc.

    Yao is a lot taller than Hakeem and biomechanically there are just limits to what the human body can do with increasing size. He's a freak of nature as it given his level of coordination and his size, but there's no question that he is not as agile as Dream was. Then again, Dream is not as tall as Yao. And the real issue is that teams are now allowed to double Yao before he gets the ball, something which was an illegal defense in Hakeem's era. Actually the real issue was that opposing teams are allowed to double Yao before he gets the ball and the rest of the Rockets couldn't figure out what to do about that.
     
  13. yulenice

    yulenice Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2008
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    0
  14. kenny_chan

    kenny_chan New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lebron's boss wealth increased 10 times ?Lebron teammate can get a shoe deal from china? Lebron team can get many funs like ROCKS?I don't want say anything more...u must consider it more seriously later i think .(I am feel so sorry to criticize u)
     
  15. CrystalPistol

    CrystalPistol Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2007
    Messages:
    166
    Likes Received:
    0
    if only he could stay healthy..
     
  16. Fidel

    Fidel Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2008
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    0
    No one has the ability to value Yao Ming. But as a rocket fan, disrespecting and undervalueing Yao is absolutely irresponsible.
     
  17. 08Champs

    08Champs Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2008
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    Exactly. Soccer is the main sport in China. Then how would you value someone who can change that situation all by himself? Les obviously thought he was valuable enough to gamble with a 1st overall pick.

    China's national sports tv broadcasts 80% of Rockets games live, if that's not jumping on the Rockets, then would you call it? NBA's China success has led to MLB playing exhibition games in Beijing this year. NFL has started bombarding Chinese television with ads, awareness films and broadcasted this year's Superbowl live.

    Beside Yao's commercial values, he's even more valuable on court IMO. Like many posts here, I think Yao is definitly a rare C in this league that every team wish they could lay their hands on. We should rather trade for players at positions with most improvement potential, without comprimising the current team chemistry of course. And with our role players developing the way they are, either we might not even want to trade any players in the future or these players will have higher trade value themselves.
     
  18. BONIERO1576

    BONIERO1576 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2002
    Messages:
    2,003
    Likes Received:
    161
    To me the real question is how much longer is the Rockets brass gonna allow Yao to summer with the national team? I understand that the Olympics is a big deal to everyone else but the U.S., but after this summer I think the Rockets should seriously consider putting their foot down and saying that's it. Regardless of how much money he brings in for Les, and I think the claims in this thread are highly exaggerated, if the team continues to underachieve that is not going to be profitable for anyone. I think even Yao would not be in favor of this because he has so much national pride, but he has to realize that his body simply cannot take that much abuse. But I really do think that the Rockets at the end of 2010 have no other choice but to say that were not going to extend you're contract if you continue to summer with the national team.
     
  19. IndonesiaFans

    IndonesiaFans Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2007
    Messages:
    270
    Likes Received:
    0
    Even the rockets is not in a contenter, Yao still draw a big fans with it...this community mean money too.. It will be more fans, if the Rocket become the champions
     
  20. Plowman

    Plowman Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 1999
    Messages:
    12,345
    Likes Received:
    13,291
    Good post.

    This is what has caused him to wear out and eventually succomb to all the foot problems which giant guys historically are riddled with..As far as I'm concerned the Rockets need to deal Yao after it's obvious to the League that he's looking good early next year.
     
    #200 Plowman, Mar 28, 2008
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2008

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now