Robinson was getting double teamed, and Olajuwon wasn't. RIGHT. And yet, somehow, Olajuwon got nearly twice as many assists. I guess Dream got all those assists running the fast break.
Jeff Foster & Scot Pollard plus zone > David Robinson (Defensive player of the Year + 8 time All D team player selection) Dennis Rodman (2 time DPOY, 9 time all D team) & J.R. Reid ? No.
Hakeem was not facing Robinson, Rodman, and Reid at the same time. In today's game, double and triple teams close in much faster than they used to, and it's also much more difficult to feed the post. But my point is that in general it's more difficult for a low post center to score in today's game than 10 years ago. I don't believe Hakeem was facing San Antonio 82 times a year.
In that stretch in 1995 Hakeem would have crushed scrubs like Jeff Foster and Scot Pollard, rules or no rules, the same way he crushed all-stars and Hall of famers like Robinson and Rodman. In that stretch in the 1995 playoffs - he crushed everybody, anytime, anywhere. There is a reason why it was characterized universally as "transcendant" at the time, by everybody, not just Rockets fans. I'm shocked that I have to explain it on this BBS of all places. Great game by Yao last night. But it's unfair to Yao to try to compare it to Olajuwon's 95 stretch. NOBODY ever had a run exactly like that, ever. And I don't think we ever will see anything like that again.
You're talking about the playoffs. I looked at regular seasons. I think you're kind of missing the point of the thread. I'm not comparing Yao's recent play to Hakeem's career accomplishments. I'm simply showing where his 9-game stretch ranks amongst Hakeems 9-game stretches during his best years. I've tried to emphasize this point several times already. Obviously, we just disagree on the impact of zone defenses. Hakeem struggled against Seattle, if you remember, and they played something similar to a zone defense (but got away with it). I really don't think Hakeem would have thrived as much offensively if he played against today's defenses. Same goes with the younger Shaq.
That's fine. I might be on your point or off your point. But anyway, I've only physically seen a few things that have approached Hakeem's 95 run in basketball - hell, in sports - off the top of my head, I'd say a few of Jordan's moments, Magic and the Lakers, Carl Lewis at the Olympics maybe, Vince Young in the Rose Bowl, Carlos Beltran for a stretch in the 2004 playoffs, Lawrence Taylor in 1986, Jerry Rice for a period, Joe Montana, Roy Jones Jr., Great game by Yao last night, great play the last two weeks, but it just doesn't compare to those things - not that that's anything to be ashamed of. If Hakeem was a rookie in 2001 - he'd probably be a PF right now. So rule changes - yeah yeah, but apples and oranges. And let's not forget - Hakeem's "off" games versus Seattle were many times of the 22 ppg 12 boards variety rather than 30-14. Not exactly chopped liver.
I think you should compare Yao 9 games to Shaq or David Robinson instead. Get everybody on the same side. While I think today's defenses definitely would have affected Akeem's game, he also would have adapted. Maybe his low post game suffers a little bit, but he probably also would have developed better ball-handling skills, slashing, and shooting to compensate. Imagine a much better version of Amare Stoudemire. Maybe not the same as the actual Akeem - but just as effective. Yao doesn't have the athletic versatility to adapt as much - other than become a high-post jump shooter.
What I would like to know is whether during Yao's 9 game stretch of good play has JVG still been weraring Yao out by having him chase small players around at the top of the key and then try to run back for a block or a defense of the basket. That always seemed like a problem to me.
True, but what I like is that being tired doesn't affect his aggressiveness. Well atleast on offense. Here's what PTI thinks about Yao's last 9 Games. http://rapidshare.de/files/15126595/Yao_Ming_PTI.wmv.html
This picture was taken during a game after they showed Yao's numbers over the last couple of weeks on the scoreboard.
Hakkem's whole career numbers is what Yao's trying to put up these past few games. Stop putting him int he same breath as Dream. This is how he got overhyped and overrated in the first place, by people who want to label him the next Wilt everytime he goes 30-10 in a game
HOLY SH-T! Watching Sampson blow those dunks was sad. That's got to be the funniest/saddest thing I've seen all week, that part alone deserves its own thread.
His overall statistical production over the last 9 games is Dream-like. And it would rank among Hakeem's better stretches during the regular season. That's what the thread demonstrates. Obviously, he hasn't proven he can do it for a full season, or a stretch of seasons. Or in the playoffs. I feel like a broken record here.
You took the words right out of my mouth. Sad, Funny, and I'll add Shocking to the list as well. I thought after he rattled in that first shot, that was it, but then he went up again and.... Damn.
Perhaps I should have started out with this comparison. This compares Yao's progress (in terms of per minute "game scores") to Hakeem's progress in his earlier years. Since I could only go as far back as the 87/88 season for Hakeem's game logs, I decided to compare his 4th and 5th season's 9-game moving average production/40 minutes to that of Yao the last two seasons. Again, it's important to note that the pace of the Rockets in the 80s was significantly faster than it is now, so stats are almost certainly inflated back then. B-R.com shows 101.8 possessions per 48 minutes for the Rockets in the 87-88 years, while now the Rockets playing a very slow pace of only around 88 possessions a game. That's about a 15% faster pace, and it's reasonable to think that Yao's statistical productivity might have been more with so many more possessions (theoretically, in proportion to the extra possessions). Or, conversely, Hakeem's productivity would have been less with 15% less possessions. Also, Yao plays less minutes per game than Hakeem did, and the gap between the two would be greater if we considered per game statistical production. Without considering Hakeem's pace-adjusted stats, he was playing at a higher level of productivity pretty much throughout. Yao's recent upsurge puts him at a level close to where Hakeem played in his better stretches. If you adjust Hakeem's stats down for pace (dividing by 1.15 with the assumption he's getting 15% more possessions per 40 minutes), the similarities between his progression and Yao's is quite interesting. If you delve further into their stats, you'd find that Hakeem was a better rebounder, shot blocker, and got a ton more steals, while Yao is a much more efficient scorer.
Hakeem wasn't double teamed? LOL. Man, that's rich. Yeah, back in 89 when we had Chievous, Buck Johnson, Mike Woodson, etc teams were like you know I think I'll single cover the best Center in the NBA and not let these other stars beat me. Hakeem was doubled and tripled his whole career. It's pretty freaking hard to take away a 7 footer who can catch the ball and turn away from the double team and shoot the ball falling away baseline. Yao just does not have a move like that. Hakeem's versatility is what your analysis completely ignores. When teams doubled Hakeem every time he touched the ball, he was so versatile he could be used in pick n roll, facing up Centers as well as draining midrange jumpers. Yao is basically a classic postup guy with little else to his game. He's also about a thousand times slower than Hakeem, which makes his game much easier to neutralize with doubles. Hakeem in today's game of scrub Centers averages over 30 ppg easily. If this crapola about zones negating postup games was true, why in the hell have Duncan and O'Neal won 6 of the last 7 titles? Very few teams even play zone at all. I really dont think you ever watched Hakeem play. Hakeem was so much easier to feed the ball to in the post than Yao because he was MUCH more adept at establishing position and much more physical down low. Yao has always struggled until this last 9 game stretch with presenting a good target for the perimeter passer and securing the ball. He is so slow that it's very easy to knock the ball out of his hands. Also, this nonsense about Hakeem getting shut down by Seattle is just that. Hakeem had one of his best playoff series ever against Seattle in 93. He just completely dominated them despite being triple teamed every play before and after he touched the ball. And he dominated on both ends, completely unlike Yao. Hakeem probably averaged more PPG in the 93 Series against Seattle than Yao has in this latest 9 game stretch. Does anyone honestly think Yao would undress a guy like David Robinson, probably the third best defensive center ever to hakeem and russell, for 35 ppg even if he is never double teamed? David Robinson is not freaking Scott Pollard or Jeff Foster.
What game do you people watch? If today's defenses have killed post play, why are the 2 best players of the past several years named Shaquille O'Neal and Tim Duncan? Teams hardly even play zone because you can only do that in the college game, not in the NBA where there are less bad shooters (zone busters). No player resembles Hakeem more in today's game than Duncan and he has absolutely zero problems with today's NBA defenses. He only has problems with his foot and at the FT line. Hakeem killed guys like Ewing, Robinson, Mouring, and Mutombo in their absolute primes. He'd have made today's garbage Centers like Skinner, Pollard, etc want to retire after facing him.
Of course Hakeem was double teamed. I never said otherwise. It's the nature of the double/triple teams that's different. 12 years ago, the Rockets could drop the ball down to Hakeem virtually every time down the court, since Hakeem only had to contend with one post defender in getting his position. Now watch the games. Yao not only has to wrestle with his defender, but he needs to maneuver in such a way that a second or third defender isn't close to him as well. There's a reason the Rockets routinely take 15 seconds of the shot clock just trying to feed Yao the ball. Don't tell me you haven't noticed this. The defense isn't necessarily playing a strict zone defense. But they can send defenders early to the post player, where before it would be called as an illegal defense (remember all those illegal defenses we were able to draw due to Hakeem's postups?). I've felt for quite some time that Yao would have been more effective playing in the early 90s. Not saying he's be as good as Hakeem, but he'd be more effective than he is now. If defenses were so much more effective against centers of that time, why was the average center so much better offensively than compared to now? Clearly, there's been a trend away from dominant low-post centers who score over the past few years. The inside-out game isn't quite as simple as it used to be.
Why did Shaq and Duncan, 2 pure post players who require you to drop the ball down to them every play in the post to be successful, win 6 of the 7 last titles if the move is away from inside out basketball? The Rockets have trouble getting the ball to Yao for various reasons. Hakeem did have better post entry passers than Yao; that is a valid argument, espeically in Horry and Clyde. But Hakeem was also miles better at establishing position and shielding his man off the ball. Duncan is also excellent at this which is why SA, playing in tne same allegedly anti post player league rules as Yao, never has a problem dropping the ball in. I can't tell you how many plays I've seen where some goon like Pollard is rooting out Yao as he's trying to establish position and he gets so worn down that he just gives up and comes up to set a pick or swings to the other side of the court. Guys like Hakeem, Shaq, TD would just keep fighting for position so it's easier to feed them the ball. Also, Yao doesn't have strong hands so he gets stripped very easily on double teams. You've gotta remember that the defensive 3 second rule was put in to not even allow you to play a true zone. Basically the only real difference is that in Hakeem's era they called it illegal D and now they call it defensive 3 seconds if you try to double the post man without the double. I think a better argument is that Yao has had a weaker team around them than Hakeem. The lack of shooting on this team hurts Yao. The rules argument is weak because of DUncan and Shaq are doing/have done post rules changes. If you watched Hakeem play in the 90's you'd know that his game was about more than just posting up. He had a money jumper to about 18 feet and would take slower Centers, like the one's of today's game, and face them up and get by them or drain the midrange J, plus he ran the court just a little better than Yao Ming. He also had great hands where all one has to do is think back to last year's mavs series where Yao dropped perfect pass after perfect pass from TMac for point blank shots to see how much of a liability his hands are. I think Yao would have been much less effective in the early 90's than he is now. With his stamina, having to guard guys like Hakeem, DRob, O'Neal, Zo, Ewing, Vlade, etc would just drain him too much to be effective offensively. You see him struggle to score one on one against Big Ben and think he'd be successful against Hakeem, DRob, and Mutombo?
