1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Yao was billed as a Temendous passer, What happened?

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Zacatecas, May 28, 2007.

  1. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    11,064
    Likes Received:
    8
    Except that if you have a raw rookie you expect them to show improvement over a 5 year span. Yao has shown improvement in scoring. What's to say he can't show improvement in other sectors. As for the logic of a guy with bad hands where are his bad hand? He gets stripped when he holds the ball low, that is a problem of how he holds the ball not of how he passes. As for slow to react Yao wouldn't be able to score 25 points in the NBA if he was that slow to react.

    Your reasoning that Yao's rookie assists numbers is as good as it gets is fundamentally flawed because under that reasoning then you could've also presumed that his scoring numbers were as good as it gets. That didn't prove true and its very possible that his rookie assists numbers aren't determanitive.
     
  2. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    11,064
    Likes Received:
    8
    Playing in the high post though will tax Yao less than playing in the low post since he won't be fighting for position all the time or having to try to back someone into the basket.
     
  3. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    11,064
    Likes Received:
    8
    Exactly and thank you Hmm.

    I think too many posters are looking at Yao as that he has reached his peak and this is the best he can become. This is only Yao's 5th year and has Dream pointed out it took him 10 years to get a ring. Dream continued to work though and add aspects to his game so the Dream of the 80's wasn't the Dream of the 90's. I look at Yao and think he too can add to his game and become much better than he is now.

    I think its great that Yao has a low post scorer and have always given JVG credit for making Yao such but at the same time Yao can be more and when he came in the league people were talking about him becoming more. A huge guy with a soft shooting touch and passing skills. Why not develop those aspects of his game? Why all the fear of the possibility that Yao can become both a great high post and low post player?
     
  4. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    58,980
    Likes Received:
    36,548
    He gets stripped, he drops passes, he tips rebounds that other players would corral - this has been a consistent feature from day 1. I have said that he has bad hands from day 1. He has confirmed this with his performance. I don't know what to say other than to watch the games. He does not have Duncan hands or Hakeem hands, which I think is mostly due to his slowness to react, get off the ground etc. Again, while fast for a 7-6 300 poiunder, in the grand scheme of things they are not that fast.

    He is definitely slow to react too. Again, I don't really know what to say other than to watch the games. See the occasions where he gets tooled on by inferior players like a Najera or a Zaza Pachulia. Witness his utter failure to secure a critical rebound at the end of Game 7. It's not because he's getting outmuscled. It's because it takes a longer for him to translate the signals to his 7 and a half foot long, 300 lb body and get it moving than it does for other players. Dennis Rodman was a great rebounder not becuase of size or leaping ability, but because he reacted quickly and was able to jump, recover, and jump again much faster than anybody on the court.

    As far as Yao being able to overcome this, slow or not when he gets going he is hard to stop. He is slow, but as far as scoring deep, when you are his size and have a modicum of shooting touch (something the other supergiant players lacked) you will be very effective - as he has been.
    You seem to be assuming that there is a linear curve on which all players will improve in all categories. I don't believe this is the case. Anyway his season high in assists as a rookie was 6. His season high in points was 30(in his 10th NBA game). In one of these categories he showed a lot more promise than the other.

    But anyway I'm not saying his rookie assists are determinative of anything. Rather they dispel the myth that as a rookie he was some sort of passing wunderkind who was turned into a low post robot by evil JVG and Patrick Ewing. That's a nice excuse which avoids admitting that Yao might have some inherent shortcomings, as good as he is in certain situations.
     
  5. zong

    zong Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2003
    Messages:
    1,203
    Likes Received:
    0
    HaHa, if the Rox has Manu Ginobili, then all others are not bit deal. Duncan got stripped, dropped passes, just got 19 points, six more TOs, then they still won the game with more than 10 points. Tell me when did Rox win the playoff games with more than 10 points when Yao had only 19 pionts. Give me T. Parker, Ginobili, and Yao, I will get the same results as they got, no much arguments here.
     
  6. Hmm

    Hmm Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    6,361
    Likes Received:
    115
    Wait.. are we evaluating Yao's overall game.. or as is applicable to the high post..?

    Apparently.. Adelman doesn't watch the games.. He's quoted saying what great hands Yao has..

    His drop passes: Bad passing angles from double teams, predictable play, fronting, fatigue with a 36min+ constant low post banging game, all this with the pre-existing constant difficulty players under 6'5 have had getting it into him that low at a successful rate.

    Stripped balls: Sishir has already addressed this. I don't see any reason why he'd ever have the ball lower than his chest on the high post.

    Tipping rebounds : You addressed this in your own post.. He can't jump fast enough... How is this applicable to what would be asked of him on the high post?

    As for a linear curve for every player to improve... Yao isn't every player, he's been proving that throughout his career to the nay-sayers.. He's not Rick Smits, he's not Shawn Bradley, and surprise surprise.. he's not Shaq.
     
  7. DonkeyMagic

    DonkeyMagic Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    21,550
    Likes Received:
    3,389
    of course JVG was holding yao down...under adelman yao will average a triple double of pts, rebs and assists. :rolleyes:
     
  8. A_3PO

    A_3PO Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2006
    Messages:
    42,639
    Likes Received:
    6,014
    I don't know if bad hands accurately describes why Yao drops passes. I think his hands are pretty good. If a pass is 100% on target, he is fine most of the time. The problem is because of his size and slowness, he cannot step out and easily snare passes that are slightly off the mark like other players can. It's similar to why Yao only gets rebounds when they are right to him.

    Some of you are overestimating Yao's passing ability. He's decent and no more. While JVG's schemes weren't conducive to using what passing skills Yao has, he won't be averaging more than 1 or maybe 1.5 APG additional under Adelman. Still, giving Yao a few more options won't hurt one bit.
     
  9. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    58,980
    Likes Received:
    36,548
    I have seen too many passes bounce off his hands and tipped balls fly away to believe this. As far as I'm concerened, in the NBA if a pass hits you in the hands, you need to catch it. He's had a lot of passes go off his hands, not just entry passes, all kinds of passes.

    As far as Adelman - so what? Rudy once claimed that Yao ran well for a small forward. Do you believe that?

    Hey I don't see much reason for him to do it in the low post either yet he still does it despite being told not to again and again. Of course it is easier said than done - even Tim Duncan was making this mistake last night in the second half and it cost the Spurs...

    It goes to my general point that he's a slow player and that things that require quick reactions are probably not the best use of his skill set.

    He's a lot closer to Shaq than anybody else in the NBA.
     
  10. Zinc

    Zinc Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2006
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    0
    We shall wait and see about next season, nothing against JVG, but I see Yao will be more comfortable with RA's Bball with the flow style, and that is supposed to be the best environment to get most of Yao's talent after he proved last season that he is already the best low pose center in the league.
     
  11. doublebogey

    doublebogey Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2006
    Messages:
    4,208
    Likes Received:
    1
    - Eddy Curry is the only player in NBA who looks like a Shaq-lite. And their games have the biggest similarities. Proof: Check out the % of FGA in the paint and other zones for Shaq and Curry.

    - Like it or not, Yao is more Ewing-like but Yao's game is more refined and I think Yao has a higher ceiling than Ewing.

    - Yao is not a power player. He's a finesse player. It's time for Yao to expand his game to better his teammates. I dont see what's the big deal between low-post and high-post. The only question is which way will help your team score better in a particular instance of defense.
     
  12. YaoFanatic

    YaoFanatic Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2007
    Messages:
    92
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yao is a pure shooter who happens to be 7'6". People, including JVG, who state he should play like Shaq underneath the basket all day long are doing him a huge disservice. Shaq needs to play that way not because it is the most efficent way to play, but because he can't play any other way. Yao however can stretch defenses if need be with his soft shooting touch. I like hard empirical evidence so go see the pregame shooting routine where Yao makes about 75% of his 20footers at all spots on the court. Of course this is unpressured practice shooting, so during a game let's knock it down to 60-65% with tight defense and maybe 55-60% minimum with fatigue. (of course with Utah's dirty/fouling 'playoff' defense this might go down to 45-50% =) ) -- still better than most players, regardless of position. So anyone who thinks it would be bad for Yao to go out to 15-20 feet is just trapped in Van Gundy ball era thinking. Get used to it now that Adelman is here to free Yao's game and improve the team's overall offense.... :)
     
  13. barryxzz

    barryxzz Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2005
    Messages:
    1,461
    Likes Received:
    4
    Yao is/should be more than a pure shooter. He is a max player playing at center position.

    I don't think JVG stated that Yao should play like Shaq. He just wanted Yao to use his size advantage and playing in low post is a must for a traditional center.

    Yes and no. Yes, that is the most effective play. No, he couldn't play other way.

    Unless you want yao become a 3rd option offense weapon, there will always be tremendous defense on him. Your number is too optimistic, because Yao's release is not that quick, so with pressured defense the turn-over rate will be high or he would have to rush his shots.


    better than most players ON Rockets, that's not saying much. OUCH! :p

    I think it's about mixing-up the offense that will make Yao most efficient. Since he has most advantage on low post, that's where he should be. He just needs to mix it up to make his offense less predictable, thus make him far more dangerous.
     
  14. Carl Herrera

    Carl Herrera Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2007
    Messages:
    45,153
    Likes Received:
    21,570
    1. While Yao doesn't have Shaq's hands and catching ability, his catching ability are better than that of many other centers. Let's remember we are talking about a group that consist of the likes of Tyson Chandler, Adonal Foyle, etc... Yao's hands are good only because the standard is set pretty low for centers.

    2. Interesting Stat for Yao vs. Brad Miller:

    Yao: 48 games, 167 Turnovers, 31 of which are "bad passes" thrown by him.

    Miller: 63 games, 108 Turnovers, 65 of which are "bad passes" thrown by him.

    What does this mean? Probably a difference in the roles played by each guy. Yao has a lot more stolen dribbles and stripped shots and a lot less "bad passes" because he scores a lot more and has to operate in the crowd a lot more. Miller, on the other hand, is in mostly a catch and either shoot or pass kind of role, thus he doesn't get his dribble stolen much or get his shots stripped. Most of Miller's TOs are probably from risky passes.

    With Yao playing the high post more, we can probably expect his ball handling TOs to go down, and depending on hwo aggresssive he is with risky passes, his "bad passes" TO may go up.
     
  15. Panda

    Panda Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2002
    Messages:
    4,130
    Likes Received:
    1
    Why so much arguing about Yao's hands and reaction time? Did Vlade Divac and Sabonis had Yao's combo of quickness(Hakeem praised Yao being very quick at his size), good hands and reaction time to collect 26 points and 11 rebounds? How many rebounds should Yao average a game to be considered having good hands, quickness and reaction? I don't buy that he grabs rebounds because he's tall argument, guys above 7'4' seldom grabs rebounds the way Yao does.

    Let's see if Yao is a good passer or not when he's facing up, once the season starts, I think Rick would mix it up.
     
  16. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    56,817
    Likes Received:
    39,131
    I agree that Yao has yet to reach his potential, and if ever allowed to have normal summers, normal for a professional basketball player in the NBA, and if he remains healthy, I think Yao will add a great deal to his game, given his physical limitations and his obvious physical abilities. I wish, however, that he was the Dream of the 80's... the Akeem of the 85-86 season and beyond. By the end of his second year, Dream had already become a force, an impact player on a level Yao has yet to achieve, except for some stretches that teased us.

    I think we are all waiting to see Yao play as he did prior to that damned leg injury for an entire season. That would be something special. :cool:
     
  17. Zacatecas

    Zacatecas Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    1,522
    Likes Received:
    105
    And what I'm getting from seeing the poll is that the majority feel that Yao's passing ability has been hindered by those around him; primarily by the system.

    The inability of the system to incorporate his passing game. His teamates not being able to capitalize on the outlet passes - bad shooting, no movement, and lack of driving to the basket. And his dismisal of the passing game, in more favor to shooting (which is good, as long as it's the better shot)

    However, there is only a small percentage that think Yao just doesn't seem to have the ability to scope out good passes - hence more assits.
     
  18. declan32001

    declan32001 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2002
    Messages:
    2,455
    Likes Received:
    17
    You are always fair-minded, and I'm particularly grateful for your posts in this particular thread. I disagree with you on several points, but I also believe Yao is a much better passer than Dream was when he was 30. :)

    Adelman could be wrong, I and others here could be wrong about Yao's overall game. But it's high time that he plays the way he supposedly says he wants to in those Chinese media interviews Pryuen studiously (and pain-stakingly) translates.

    I'll always believe JVG got fired because of Yao (and nothing Yao said or did) and I think there's a distinct possibility Yao might make T-Mac's life easier playing like he does in FIBA events.

    Has anyone ever noticed how SamFisher posts in the GARM sparingly and then ad-nauseum after the season ends? He must really get off on losing.

    Oh, and Deckard, just keep the faith man.
     
  19. hooroo

    hooroo Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2003
    Messages:
    18,915
    Likes Received:
    1,507
    Sabonis made passes that were as flashy as ones made by Jason Williams.
     
  20. Panda

    Panda Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2002
    Messages:
    4,130
    Likes Received:
    1
    He was one heck of a player. Too bad injuries slowed him down. Whether Yao can make those passes remains to be seen, I believe Yao has the tools to be a very good high post passer. How many centers did Adelman have who has a vertical reach of 10ft and sees all over the court? How often could he pair that center with another great playmaker in T-Mac? The speed of Adelman flew into Les' arms made me think that he sees a great combo to run his offense, a combo he hasn't seen before.
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now