Spot brother..... People can't understand that tmac constantly took the worst shot in basketball. His whole time in Houston everyone was saying why can't he just take it to the hoop more with his size and Athletism, it seemed so natural that he would do just that, yet he didn't. James harden at 23 in his first year in Houston took a very poor rockets team to 45 wins and a playoffs berth. Tmac in similar circumstances couldn't muster up a playoff berth. These are just facts that these tmac fanboys can't seem to grasp. It's called playing winning basketball and harden does that while tmac just didn't. Tmac had one great season.... And it wasn't in Houston, his whole career in rocket red he shot under 43% every year and 3 of those seasons under 41%. It's funny because tmac totally underachieved in Houston and any sane rockets fan understands this. Their were no good times like some posters on here keep saying. Tmac was an amazing talent, but potential doesn't supercede actuality. He was the ultimate what if, his first love was baseball and that's prob why he never got to the pennicle of the sport. Every year he wouod come into training camp out of shape he never worked on his game in the offseason. Harden on the other hand works extremely hard has added to his game every offseason always comes into camp in top notch shape and it's the reason why he has been 1st team all NBA the past 2 years and continues to get better at such a young age because basketball is his first love he knows nothing else. All The greats had this trait it undeniable.
Harden would get too the hoop even more than he does now if he played back then. No zone defense. Harden is one of the best one on one players the game has ever seen his size and ability to finish in traffic would have made him unstoppable in that era. And Jordan avg 10+ ft in this era so guards that attacked the hoop did get calls.
Who is the better defender? Defense is part of the game. While Harden's stats blow TMAc off as a Rocket offensively, I think Tmac edges Harden's little or lack of D but overall I'd still take greater O over slightly better D.
You're right about Richmond, I shouldn't have included him in my grouping of non-shooters, but regardless the point is still the same. Replace Richmond in the list with David Thompson (only 102 total 3pt attempts in NBA, 25.5% 3pt% , career TS% of 56.5%), Corey Maggette (career 32.4% 3FG% but still posted career TS% of 57.7) or Kevin Johnson (career 30.5% 3FG% but had career TS% of 58.7%). None of those guys were great shooters so they concentrated on their strengths and scored by getting to the rim. McGrady on the other hand began to shoot even more jumpers. Also, players who get to the rim will get foul calls...always have. Jerry West averaged as high as 12.4 FT/game, Dantley's best season was 12 FT/game, Jordan's best was 11.9 FT/game, Oscar Robertson was over 11 FT/game four times in his career with a high of 11.9. Even World B. Free averaged over 11 FT/Game twice in his career. As has already been pointed out, if Harden played in an era with no zone defenses then he'd be almost impossible to guard.
If they were arguing McGrady was a better shooter, then you are correct, as there is no point in their relative careers where McGrady was even close to Harden in that capacity. Scoring is not the only measure of a great player though, but rather only one facet of a great players impact on the game. I also would not say that the 2013 team had much worse talent, after consideration of injuries to Yao. I would rate the teams as follows: Parsons > Battier (Battier better defender, while Parsons was a more complete offensive player with average defence) Asik << Yao (Asik did play 82 games compared to 55 for Yao though) Lin = Alston (approximately = to) Patterson = Scola (approximately = to) Bench 2008 - Hayes, Mutombo at 41, Bobby Jackson, Luther Head, C Landry 2013 - Beverly, Delfino, Garcia, Brooks, T Jones, T Douglas, M Morris Debatable, but benches were pretty equal in my opinion. As such, I think you are at pretty much the same team quality, with a the only real edge for 2008 team being Yao (who did not play but 55 games and zero in the playoffs), yet 2008 Rockets were 55-27 compared to 45-37 in 2013. Both first round exits as well, with more disappointment IMO in the 2008 team as they were in the top half of the playoff bracket and our hopes were higher for that team. Yao injury killed them though. I do think that Harden was the better player by then, with injuries taking their toll on McGrady (shoulder and knee in that year). Not an excuse, but rather a fact as injuries are part of sports. I also think you can go back and analyze year by year who teammates where to have a basis for a claim of one guy playing with inferior talent as compared to another over their career, but you have to look at production as opposed to name brand (i.e., an old Mutombo), although I will leave that up to someone with more time on their hands than I.
I was directly responding to this quote It was a poster making excuses for McGrady's poor efficiency, so yeah, it had everything to do with scoring. So we agree that Harden is the better scorer. Harden had the better assist numbers too. So exactly what did McGrady do better than Harden? How did McGrady impact the game as much or more than Harden? You've already said that McGrady wasn't even close to Harden is scoring. Harden has better assist numbers too. Neither guy was a good defender. Rebounding was pretty even. Harden had the better facial hair. So, how is this even debatable? A couple of points: 1) Rookie Chandler Parsons wasn't better than 2008 Battier. Parsons averaged 9.5 pts, 4.8 reb , 33.7% 3pt%, 2.1 ast, 51.3% TS% and had win share of 3.4. Battier averaged 9.3 pts, 5.1 reb, 37% 3pt%, 1.9 Ast, 56% TS% and had a win share of 8. At that point in each of their careers Battier was a better 3pt shooter and more efficient overall. Their rebounding and assists were pretty much a wash. Considering that Battier was our defensive stopper and much superior to Parsons on the defensive end, I'm not sure how you decided that Parsons was better. That's not even considering all of the intangibles that Battier brought the table (see Michael Lewis' "No-Stat All-Star article http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/magazine/15Battier-t.html?_r=0) 2) If you are going to discount Yao because he only played 55 games then you really can't compare Patterson to Scola since Patterson was traded after 47 games. The other 35 games we started one of Greg Smith, rookie Marcus Morris, rookie D-Mo or Delfino at PF. 3) 41 Year old Mutombo was still a great backup center. He averaged 5.1 reb and 1.2 blocks in only 15.9 minuts/game during the regular season. In the playoffs he averaged 6.5 reb/game and 1.8 blk/game in only 20.8 min/game.
I love James, but I'm wondering if Tracy was a better passer. He had great court vision. James is more efficient, but i'm not going to lie, Tracy's jumper was beautiful. That elevation.... We're in good hands now.
Are you basing that off of style or results? McGrady averaged 5.6 ast/game as a Rocket with a high of 6.5 ast/game. Harden has averaged 6.3 ast/game as a Rocket with a high of 7.0 ast/game. McGrady's jumper did look good. Some of the best looking misses that you'll see. Personally,I'd prefer an ugly made shot over a pretty missed one. We haven't really even talked about FT shooting yet either. I find it hilarious that in '08 Mutombo (71.1%)shot better from the FT line than McGrady (68.4%). McGrady was a career 74.6% FT shooter. Maybe that was due to his weak supporting cast or possibly it was due to the fact that he wasn't a good shooter.
Probably style, though they're fairly close on the numbers. I just recall Tracy having great court vision and making passes that were sometimes unbelievable. You're right though--James has been efficient. I think he'll learn to pass the ball more after that nightmare 13 turnover game against GS. That was horrendous.
Efficiency is nice and all, but it doesn't tell the whole story. One of McGrady's greatest strengths was taking care of the basketball. He had a ridiculously low turnover rate for his level of usage. On a shot by shot basis, yes efficiency is the benchmark. On a possession by possession basis, efficiency is less important, because less turnovers create more or less opportunities for efficient shots. McGrady gains some ground here in that regard. You also have to factor pace. The Rockets were a slow grind it out team, sacrifice offensive rebounds to get back on defense, more emphasis on defensive rebounding and less leak outs. That means less fast breaks which are high percentage plays and less putbacks which are also high percentage. This is definitely going to adversely affect McGrady's efficiency. For the record, I prefer Harden, but I have a ton of respect for McGrady.
I think both have their different ways of passing, James is obviously much more involved in Pick and Roll which is how the game is played nowadays. McGrady was larger and longer than Harden and he excelled at long range passing like a quarterback, precise thread the needle passes from middle court to the other end. He was taller than the average guard, can could look over them finding team mates. Both could pass in the open court and in a half court system but McGrady used his long arms and his height to his advantage while Harden was the more physical and instinctual guy
I think I said shooter, not scorer, but the point was that you are correct he is/was more efficient at that skill for all of McGrady’s career post back injury in Orlando. I have not looked, but I would be curious what the comparison of the two where McGrady was 23 like Harden was in 2013? I am guessing it was pretty close, with far lesser talent on the Orlando roster?? According to basketball reference, McGrady was actually better in assist, but only by 0.1 (5.9 vs. 5.8), better in rebounds by 0.1 as well, so essentially the same statistically. I would also suggest that while McGrady’s defense was not awesome or even average for that matter, but it was way better than Harden in 2013. Harden was laughing stock of the league until this past season. If Harden can continue this path on defense in future years, he will far exceed McGrady in defense IMO, but not in 2013. I also did not suggest that McGrady impacted the game as much has Harden, as 23 year old Harden in 2013 was better than 28 year old McGrady in 2008, probably even without the shoulder and knee injury. Not sure where you got Parson’s numbers from, but I am looking at basketball reference and it shows the following for Parsons his rookie year: Parsons averaged 15.5 pts, 5.3 reb , 38.5% 3pt%, 3.5 ast, 58.4% TS% and had win share of 7. I would say that these numbers are much better than Battier’s at that point in his career. So, Delfino to Scola Delfino averaged 10.6 pts, 3.3 reb , 37.5% 3pt%, 2.0 ast, 54.9% TS% and had win share of 3.5. Scola averaged 10.3 pts, 6.4 reb, 00.0% 3pt%, 1.3 Ast, 54.8% TS% and had a win share of 6.5. Seems pretty equal still… My point was the supporting cast was pretty similar, not severely better in 2008 as you describe. Mutombo also only averaged 3 points per game regular season and 3.8 in the playoffs, with Chuck Hayes playing most of the remainder of the minutes at center with similar to lesser scoring averages. Total rebounds between the two were pretty decent at 10.5, but everything else was sub-par for the center position. Post Yao injury, Asik was better than the two headed monster, so that brings the center position closer to equal for the year as well.
That's one of the things about T-Mac; he was flashy. A lot of people like it and are blinded by it and ultimately have the impression that T-Mac was better than he actually was. I remember this one time where he was posting up and for some incredibly stupid reason, he dribbled the ball behind his back IN FRONT of the defender and then turned around to hit the fadeaway. While his fanboys were slipping on their drool ecstatic about that play, I was personally pissed. I remember going "WTF WAS THAT YOU DUMB PIECE OF CRAP?!?" It was pure showboating and completely unnecessary, a high risk play with very little reward. If the defender had stolen the ball when he did that, everyone would have been talking about what an extremely stupid move that was.
This is true. Tracy would go on these ridiculous hot streaks that would make you forget about his really poor shooting games. The main difference with James is that he is relentless at attacking the basket even when his shot isn't falling, and that keeps his %s at a great efficiency. We ALL used to beg McGrady to attack the basket more. Also, McGrady was a gifted passer and IMO, had better vision than Harden. Now Harden, a very good facilitator, may average more assists but I believe it's because of the opportunities he creates for himself on drives to the basket. But there were a number of passes that McGrady would make that left you scratching your head like how'd he do that?
^This! This is especially true for me. I hated, ABSOLUTELY HATED, that T-Mac would keep settling for those ****ty midrange jumpers that he would keep clanking. Who gives a **** if the jumper looks silky smooth if the ball doesn't go into the bucket?!? When T-Mac drives in and the D plays him hard and knocks him down a few time, you KNEW T-Mac's balls would shrink into his body and he would start hoisting the ball, regardless of whether or not those shots were going in. When Harden goes cold, he drives even more relentlessly.
