usually those players tend to do more b/c his teammates aren't up to par. deron handles less b/c he has other go to guys (boozer, okur). with the hornets, who else do you trust the ball so it's understandable everything starts and ends with chris paul. in previous years, we didn't have a matured brooks or artest or scola so obviously tracy was expected to do a lot. i doubt if he had this group of supporting cast a few years ago that he would control the offense as much as he did. see kobe for example. his usage rating was a RIDICULOUS 38.7% before pau came (meaning he was responsible for 38.7% of the lakers' offense). since pau arrived, it's gone down to 31-32 (which is still absurdly high). well you should get my point.
I think this series with Orlando vs Lakers can really tell us who is the better player now yao or howard. Off the first game of Orlando vs Lakers, Howard had a hard time against a team that has the capability to defend bigs with gasol, bynum and odem to throw at the dominate Center. It's only one game, but if Orlando gets blown out or if Lakers do shut down Howard, I dont think theres any choice to think Yao is the better center. To me its hard to say whos better. D howard definitly more physically gifted but Yao has more skill. However because I watch Rocket game more, I would say Yao get double and triple team more often the Howard. Plus the West generally has better teams. This series can really show a lot on Howard strength or weakness depending on how they do. I can see Magic losing in 5
it's just one game. EVERY magic player did pathetic. it was probably stage fright. they're not that bad. for your info, dwight averaged 21.5ppg and 16rpg v. them in the reg. season. he'll play better.
It was there, maybe you didn't read my post. And No, there is not back to back in the playoff. Here is again DH playoff vs Yao regular season stats, and because Yao and DH have played vs LA in the postseason those stats too. Phi 2games each PPG DH 21 - Yao 13.5 Bos 2games each PPG DH 14 - Yao 17 Cle 2games each PPG DH 20 - Yao 23 Phili 1games each PPG DH 12 - Yao 28 3 out 4 Yao score better that Dwight and played less minutes. And that is with Yao being double all the time.
Yao had one horrible game vs. a HEALTHY Boston team w/ KG. I'll give you that. 2nd meeting vs. Boston he had 26 pts on 10/13 shooting, 8 reb, 4 ass, 2 blk. Good game vs. once again a HEALTHY Boston team with KG. Vs. Cleveland first meeting in 22 minutes Yao had 19 points 5 rebs 1 block with 13/13 free throws. 2nd meeting vs. Cleveland he had 28 points on 13/15 shooting 8 reb 1 block. Good game. The Rockets blew them out, so he didn't have to do much else. Philly is a team Yao does struggle against simply because they double/front him every possession. In 2 games, he shot 9/20, not getting enough shots. Due to Philly playing smart and not allowing Yao to beat them, they beat us both times this year. Lets see his stats vs. other good front lines: vs. Denver 26 ppg in 3 meetings vs. Portland watch 2009 playoffs when he was played 1-on-1 he put up 24 and 9 in 24 minutes. vs. LA Lakers 17.5 ppg on 58% fg in 7 meetings, (includes a game he had a fractured foot in the playoffs). vs. Detroit (a team Howard has somewhat struggled against in the past) 31 pts, 13/22 fg, 15 reb, 4 blks. vs. Hornets 21 ppg in 3 meetings vs. Utah 20 ppg in 4 meetings vs. Orlando (and DH12) 21 ppg 14.5 rpg in 2 meetings vs. PHX (and SHaq) 17 ppg 14 rpg in 3 meetings The one formidable front line he didn't do well against this year was San Antonio, but he has proven himself against them before. The point is, there is a reason why Yao's #'s don't look as good as Howards. Teams usually don't allow Yao to get any touches. He causes defenses to pay all their attention to them. With our team without a Tmac, that is not always a good thing. Luckily Scola and Brooks developed into better scorers to counter that a little bit but its still a struggle. When Yao had a healthy Tmac in 2007, he was putting up 25 and 10 easily. Howard has 3 playmakers when his team is healthy, not to mention an arsenal of 3 point shooters. THerefore whether DH12 has a mismatch or not, he's not going to be doubled, fronted or zoned as much as Yao will be. It just will not happen. I think Howard is the superior athlete and is a little bit better of a rebounder than Yao and a better shot blocker (not necessarily a better defender). The one major thing DH12 has on Yao though is durability. That is why when I make this comparison, I always make sure to include "when both are healthy...etc." In my opinion, I honestly don't see Yao playing as bad as DH12 did last night. He has much more skill and versatility on offense. Everybody knows what Dwight Howard is gonna do. He is either gonna go to the middle with a hook shot or go to the middle and spin back towards the baseline. If you are big, strrong, or long enough to defend that, he's not going to score much on you. With Yao, teams either have to double him, front him, zone him, or hope that he has a bad shooting night. Therefore I say in a playoff/finals game, Yao is the man you want in the middle or a prime Shaq or Duncan. Howard just isn't skilled enough yet to counter bigger,stronger, or longer players. If he hasn't learned in 5 years, I don't know if he ever will. Just ask yourself this...what is Dwight Howard if he gets a major leg/foot injury? What will he be able to do without athleticism...NOTHING until he develops skill like Amare did. If Amare didn't develop a jumper, his career would be drastically different now. Athleticism won't last forever, but skill and bball IQ always will.
Great Post! Yao and DH are both great centers, but not PERFECT centers. Each has his own strengthes and shortcomings. For Yao, taking him off the offensive end usually needs great team effort, fronting and double team. With these intensive defense, Yao very often had bad stats. But with those wresting defense and bad calls, I do not think anyone can have. For DH, with a strong man who can hold him off the paint, he is pretty much taken out of the offensive end because of his limited offensive skill set. But usually he can still get some points from offensive rebounds and do a lot on denfensive rebounds.
I understand what you're saying, but adding the "when both are healthy" tag makes your arguments irrelevant. Its the same as saying Tmac is better than Kobe because when "both are healthy" Tmac is as much of a scoring threat and is a better playmaker to boot. The fact is, Yao has gone MIA the past three seasons when playoff time comes around, while DH has not not missed significant time at all. Adding the "when both are healthy" disclaimer is unfair to Howard because you are taking away Yao Ming's greatest weakness, while disregarding one of Howard's greatest strength. Yes, when absolutely healthy Yao Ming is the best big man in the game today. During the JVG years before he broke his foot Yao Ming was an absolute terror, rebounding, scoring and defending people with impunity. However present-day Yao Ming is just a shadow of his former self-he lost whatever quickness he had, and his high center of gravity combined with his lack of lateral quickness means he always gets pushed around and taken out of games by fronting second rate guys like Perkins. Considering he ended yet another season with an injury, I highly doubt Yao Ming will ever be fully healthy for the rest of his career. Prime Yao Ming might be able to beat Howard, but Reality Yao Ming is inferior to DH overall. DH is the best C in the league today, whether you want to admit it or not.
Go back and take a closer look at Yao's numbers that season. Specifically, his scoring was significantly higher when T-Mac was not playing. The reason is straightforward -- no one else on the team could create shots, so he was relied on to do so much more. Your argument seems to be ignoring this factor, and as a result you're drawing somewhat backwards conclusions. The less offensive weapons you have around you, the more looks you will usually get. And the more offensive weapons you have around you, generally the less looks you will get. Yao's scoring didn't dip this year because he's drawing so much more attention. It dipped because the Rockets didn't rely on him nearly as much to score. The ball moved away from him in half court sets more freely, and there was more early offense stuff that didn't include him. And to me, compared to Howard, Yao isn't quite as effective scoring in less structured offenses. He doesn't clean up on the offensive glass as productively, and he's slower on converting off of dump-off passes from his teammates. So, if we put Yao in Orlando where there are even more weapons, does that mean his scoring jumps up to 25-30 ppg? I would argue no. Not unless significant limits are put on the other players in deference to Yao's post up game.
I think he may be saying Yao would have better stats if he had a nice playmaker on the team, or at lease his scoring would go up because he would be getting more touches. Thats what I'm getting by him saying when Yao had a healthy Tracy he was putting up more points because Tracy knew how to get the ball to Yao. I agree somewhat that if Yao had a better playmaker this year he could have put up better numbers. I think that would be the only way to stop the fronting so therefore Yao would get more touches and score more points.
Not sure if Yao needs to be watching Howard...I think Yao needs to watch tape (and I'm sure he does), but Dwight Howard tape? Nah. Maybe. He might get something helpful out of it, but can he be DH or turn into DH or move like DH? No. Can he do things that DH can't and because of that, is Yao special? Yes. As others have posted, I just want Yao healthy for next season (even the playoffs), and I want Yao to just maximize what he is, not try to be somebody else. Go Yao!!!
man that is right on the bottom line. yao is damn good...howard is damn good...but they are completely different....and asking one to be the other is crazy and that goes for both. yao will never be able to do some of the things dwight does. dwight will never be able to do some of the things yao does. why is that s bad?
Yes, yes, and yes. And to be a good poster, I should have posted some examples of stuff that Yao does that Dwight can't, like...shoot...and make free throws at around 80%, and I'm sure there are other things. I want Yao to be Yao, just the best Yao he can be. Does that sound corny? Oh well. Just want Yao to be healthy next season and to play his game. Maybe the coaching staff will do some different thigs with him to lessen the load on his feet, less time on the low post, etc. etc., there are a lot of suggestions here on the GARM, but either way, go Yao!!!
You bring up a good point and I agree. But the OP's original suggestion is for Yao to be more aggressive and demand the ball more, something he is possible of doing. The OP never said for Yao to be as athletic as Dwight or do anything that is not under his control.
This is what I was getting at. Of course when your the only option on a team, your #'s will be higher such as Danny Granger, Al Jefferson, KG for many years, Kobe for a couple of years etc. So I do agree with that statement. However, with Yao he is 7'6 310+ lbs. Its not easy to get him the ball in the same spots all the time. Yao can't just bring the ball up the court and just keep it or even come out to the 3 point line and do anything but shoot with it. When he had Tmac, he was able to get the ball down low or right at the basket on the pick n' roll. I think more than anything else that is why Tmac helps this team...he makes Yao's job MUCH easier. He won't have to wrestle for 18 seconds every possession for position and risk being called for a dumb foul. The poster before you was also right about Yao's #'s going up when Tmac had his back injury in 2007. But that is also a small sample size (7 games), so the teams we played may have just been bad teams who didn't know that fronting Yao and forcing Rafer, Battier, Juwan Howard and Head to beat them was the way to go, but somehow JVG found a way to get Yao 30+ shots back to back games in that stretch. He was basically getting atleast 15 shots a game in that 7 games stretch. But with a big center like Yao or Shaq, they need the dynamic wing player or point guard to get them the ball easier and room to score. With wing players, or athletic bigs, if you surround them with scrubs, they can put up mvp level #'s during the season.
Indeed. Having some more time to think about this, imho there is more to Dwight Howard's success than pure athleticism. Admittedly, athleticsm opens up a lot of opportunities, however, I'd argue that DH12 exhibits tremendous fundamentals as a premiere rebounder - be it on the defensive end OR the offensive end. Some may be just pure instinct, but when I look at his "base" and how he uses his body, his fundamentals are simply solid. One of my gripes with Yao is how poor a rebounder he is. For all you stat people looking to drudge up Yao's stat line, forget about it. My argument to you is why a 7'6" guy with legs to match, can't grab more offensive or defensive rebounds? How often have we seen Yao give up an offensive or defensive rebound for lack of positioning? Or boxing out? Anyone who's watched an iota of Rocket games knows exactly what I'm talking about. DH12 has the basics of boxing out preprogrammed into his head. Even without his superior jumpng ability, you can tell he has great position in many situations. Can the same be said of Yao? Some food for thought, or ideas if you will, of what Yao can do better should one think I'm only out to criticize him. 1. Loiter just a tad longer in the paint w/o violating the 3 sec rule (Shaq used to get away with this with reckless abandon) 2. Spin moves for better positioning (he can do it with the ball, why can't he do it without?) 3. Wider stance (to this day -as his teammates have previously remarked - I still believe Yao hasn't really understood how to use his bodyto its fullest potential.) 4. Stronger and more frequent drop steps - preferably INTO the defender's leg 5. Keeping one's hands UP 6. Mini-steps to find one's optimal position theSAGE
Since we have problems with people understanding numbers and making things up, here is a previous post with no strings attached. People want to brring up the foul trouble yao had, but they never mention how howard fouled out of 3 games vs cleveland and still put up monster numbers.
I agree with Yao demanding the ball more, but what I'm talking about is what happens after he gets the ball (and that's if he can get the ball, I don't think I've seen fronting issues like I have this last season). The OP also mentioned how aggressive Dwight is, I don't think Yao can be any more agressive. I used to be on that bandwagon, too, it sounded so easy, you know, the problem is Yao just isn't aggressive enough, etc. etc. I don't think Yao can be any more agressive. Do you see the stuff he gets called for? It's ridiculous. If he gets any more agressive or uses any of his strength he'll have two fouls early in the 1st, no doubt. OP mentioned giving good hard fouls, no doubt that helps. Don't commit the dumb fouls, give a good hard foul and prevent the shot if you're going to get the foul. However, once again, easier said than done. I don't think Yao thinks he's gonna get called for stuff half the time when he commits em, he gets the ticky-tack calls going against him. OP mentioned
Oops, cut myself off. OP mentioned "Drive across the lane for right/left hand layups or running hooks". Yeah, I'd like to see it, heck, I'd love to see it, but Yao can't move a couple feet under the basket without being called for a travel or he'll have the ball swatted away once he puts it down to dribble, so I don't know. OP mentioned dunk more and with two hands. Definitely, I agree. But is that easier said than done? I guess it's my recurring theme, are we asking too much from Yao? Are we looking at things that we see and think are simple things but in reality, aren't all that easy? I think if these things were that easy, coaches, Yao, etc. would have seen em on tape and addressed it quicker. I mean, look at the fronting issue, that happened a lot towards the end of the season, and I still don't think we had a great strategy to beat it even by the time the season ended. Ball still never moved quick enough and to the right person to get it to Yao before he got fronted. I don't know, I want these things to happen, I wish they would, I know Yao can and will improve (I'm not saying he's not going to or can't), but I just don't want people to have unrealistic expectations for Yao and therefore get another reason to tear him apart when he can't get the ball in the low post, or he can't get the dunk up with two hands, etc. Either way, go Yao!!!
Getting or not getting calls is more than taking to the rim. I always laughed when I watch the replay of last year's call against Yao when Rox played Magic. DH was 5 feet away from Yao, and Yao got offensive foul!!!!
