<blockQUOTE>Originally posted by Yetti Heypartner: An excellent post and a great reply! </blockQUOTE> Glad you like. I owed you one for not just saying "I agree" with you earlier. btw: Franz Kafka is an excellent writer for a Dallas Mavs site. He has a lot of great info, and that post did as well. But sometimes any and all Dallas fans annoy us Houstonians.
What's the problem? If Wang Zhizhi doesn't want to serve, he doesn't have to. There's no one holding a gun to his head, despite all the ignorant rantings on this board. But there are LAWS which control how the NBA can proceed. There's certainly no one holding a gun to David Stern's head, but he also recognizes the authority of FIBA... which in this case makes it clear the CBA owns the right to Yao Ming's professional basketball career. Just as the Houston Rockets owns, for the next 7+ years, the rights to Steve Francis's professional basketball career. Why is *that* acceptable? What in the world does the opening lines of the US Constitution have to do with anything? Is this another mythical statement about the merits of "freedom". When I take out a mortage, I recognize I most definitely do NOT have the "freedom" of not repaying that debt. When I join the army, I recognize I most definitely do NOT have the "freedom" of skipping out on my service. When I sign a NBA contract, I recognize I do not have the "freedom" of disregarding it; financial/professional consequences exist. The US Constitution doesn't suggest otherwise. Yao Ming and Wang Zhizhi can do anything they'd like to do. They can sit down right now and tell the world: I will never play professional basketball. But!! if they wish to get paid for playing basketball in an organization organized under FIBA, then they must play under the rules as offered by FIBA.
You are very mistaken. You certainly can not. In fact, they shoot you if you resign your commission at the 'wrong' time.
Hey HP, I'd like to see you file a lawsuit in the State of Texas some time referencing articles from the Houston Chronicle as sole evidence of contractual agreement. You can explain to the judge that they have a long reputation of accurate reporting and accurate quoting. That oughta be interesting.
Biased account of Chinese history. Doesn't the Confucian hierarchy and the philosophy of obedience towards superiors also get credit for the longest lasting continuous society in human history? Both are true. He wants to show off his skills in the US to the gathered crowd of NBA agents/coaches/managers. Look at the substantial number of contracts (as well as hype) that came out of spending a week in Indianapolis for a number of foreign players: Wang wanted the same. I don't think it makes sense to bash Wang Zhizhi's motivations. I think it's obvious he does want money, and an improvement in his career. And I think it's true he has some sense of loyalty to the Chinese NT. All of these are perfectly valid motivations we ALL understand. I think it does, however, make sense to bash Wang Zhizhi's tactics in attaining his goals. The mythical agent/parasite Simon Chan has warped this guy into a devious double-dealing shady character. Wang's attempts to stay hidden from media, fans, and the Chinese NT all summer invites natural suspicion. Wang could've been a martyr. He could've fought for the right of Chinese players to play overseas during the off-season, perhaps to the great benefit of Yao Ming and Rockets fans. But instead, he's cast himself as one of the greatest obstacles to the advancement of Chinese basketball. For that, he'll be a goat until he changes his tactics.
I don't think this 'defense' is so baffling. I don't think the "Chinese friends" would be surprised to see Cuban "manipulating the b-ball talent" owned by the Mavericks... even if that meant he had to play hard-ball. I don't think the "Chinese friends" would be surprised to see the Rockets the same. I don't think the "Chinese friends" would be surprised to see Rashard Lewis manipulating the teams/media in order to maximize his value on the free-agent market. What I do find baffling is the obvious double standard... while Rockets fans view Cuban's manipulations with a shrug and a wry grin, some are in arms blaming China's "totalitarian communist authoritarian government"... or what was it that you chose to phrase it as? The "Commie masters"? That's hypocritical, ignorant, and offensive. A description that applies to almost every free agent negotiation in every major-revenue sport out there. There's two types of obligations: the moral and the legal. You, sir, are speaking of the moral obligation to the community. You ignore the fact that Western athletes must fulfill legal obligations even if they find it odious and distasteful. This is precisely why great players end up playing on crappy teams that they despise. Allen Iverson does not have the "freedom" to play for the Lakers at any price he chooses... he's a slave to the "capitalist masters" back at NBA headquarters. Wang Zhizhi has no legal obligation to the Chinese NT. I don't think there's much dissent over this. Some Chinese fans believe he has a moral obligation to serve... but if he doesn't, c'est la vie. Similarly, the CBA has no legal obligation to the Houston Rockets and the Rockets fans. The Rockets drafted Yao Ming, fabulous. They now are the proud owners of Yao Ming's legal rights for professional basketball within the NBA; just ask FIBA. The CBA, in every other form, retains legal rights over Yao Ming... and Yao Ming is legally obligated to them. I think it's safe to say everyone on this board feels the CBA has a moral obligation to now release Yao Ming to the Rockets... but let's get it straight: it's a moral obligation. So, let's end the hypocritical double standard. If you are here to argue that Wang Zhizhi has no (legal) obligation to serve the Chinese NT, then be honest enough to admit the CBA has no (legal) obligation to release Yao Ming to the Houston Rockets. I, and others however, would argue that Wang Zhizhi both has a moral obligation to serve the Chinese NT (as he promised)... AND the CBA has a moral obligation to release Yao Ming to the Rockets (as they promised).
Franz Kafka, You should tell Mike Fisher that if he should visit this board once in a while so he might actually get a some accurate basketball info for his talk show and DallasBasketball.com (just joking) HP, I agree with everything you say except the part about the NBA and the collective bargaining agreement being like communism. The key there is that the agreement with the NBA and Players Association was collectively bargained . How many contracts do you think are collectively bargained in good faith by the CBA? Somehow I don't think the players are allowed a whole lot of input on the rules and salaries of that league. Question: Could Yao Ming have skipped the CBA and all of its hassles by going to college in the U.S. straight out of high school and then entering the draft? I don't know but I am guessing no.
Give them some slack, HP. I lived in Dallas for many years. I hated all the Dallas teams (especially the Cowboys after Jerry Jones took over ). I've always been sympathetic with fans in a hostile environment. I've been a Rockets fan all my life. But I only lived in Houston for less than 5 years. So I know how it feels to be ridiculed and treated like an idiot by people simply because I don't root for their team. Anyway, I agree that Yao's situation is completely different from Wang's. Yao has a much better leverage. That's why I am not worried about his signing . . . yet. But we cannot ignore Nelson's remark because there is a general problem in dealing with Chinese officials. I am not bashing the Chinese. It's the last thing I want to do (if you know my background). It's just . . . you never know. . . anything can happen . . . trust me . . .
<blockquote>Originally posted by heech Hey HP, I'd like to see you file a lawsuit in the State of Texas some time referencing articles from the Houston Chronicle as sole evidence of contractual agreement. You can explain to the judge that they have a long reputation of accurate reporting and accurate quoting. That oughta be interesting. </blockquote>I'll tell you one thing. If Feigan gets it wrong, he can be sued for quoting something erroneously. Can a reporter for the "Official News Agency" in China be sued. The point that is utterly lost on you is a matter of comparing credibility of one paper to another....and I didn't start that stupid argument. Seems the only reason we keep hearing Chinese fans say they have a "credible official" news agency in China must be because there is rampant uncredible and unofficial news agencies in China. Here in Houston, the Rockets official news is released to the media. That's the way they do it. They have a person on the payroll named <b>Nelson Luis</b> whose job is Communication Director and acts as player, team, and media liaison. Oh, and btw, he was in China to help when the Rockets and Sharks signed the agreement with Carrol Dawson and Goldberg. He was a witness to those final negotiations. Did the NY Times or China's "Official News Agency" have a spokemans there?? Oh, and btw, Jonathan Feigen flies with the Rockets to away games. That is why they are called "beat reporters." If it is official Rockets news Luis will tell Feigen personally as one of the first to know. Don't wait for the NY Times; you will be late.
<blockQUOTE>Originally posted by crash5179 HP, I agree with everything you say except the part about the NBA and the collective bargaining agreement being like communism. The key there is that the agreement with the NBA and Players Association was collectively bargained . </blockQUOTE>"bargained" for the "collective" are closer to communism that Smith's "Invisible Hand." In fact, Bargained and Collective sounds like Farm Subsidies or OPEC. Bargain and Collective are nearly Oxymoron's in the true spirit of a free market economy. And also, that thing was forced upon the Players due to a lockout. You really think that was "collectively bargained" with the players all that much. The "collective" part refers to the Owners teaming up as a collective to screw the players out of greed. imo, from the way the Head of Chinese basketball desribes the league's profit goals, the economic structure of the NBA is very similar to the CBA....that is: a great portion of the revenue stream is shared with the collective....where no one gets more than the other, and everyone becomes an equal commodity. That is great way to start a description of Communist economics.
Please, Feigan is only liable for libel if he knowingly published information intended to hurt the reputation of another. He most certainly can not be sued simply for quoting something erroneously. Neither did I. I don't even know the argument you're referring to. My point's pretty simple: it seems like you're asserting the CBA has some kind of a legal obligation to hand over Yao Ming on the basis of oral comments that allege "agreements", as reported by the Houston Chronicle. I don't care how proud you are of the First Amendment and how dismissive you are of the Chinese press, that's simply not true. I'll wait for the legally enforceable document to be presented. And if your point is simply that Feigan knows what the Rockets are telling him, then I'll agree with that 100%. It doesn't really matter what the Chinese press said. Even if the Chinese press didn't say a single word on the matter, you *still* wouldn't have a leg to stand on.
When HP gets on a roll like that I just do all I can to try and keep up. For all of the emotion in his posts he sure puts a lot of good info in them. I actually learn a lot reading his posts. BTW HP I still disagree with the collective bargaining agreement being like communism but you sure make one hell of a litigater! Preach on brutha.
It seems that heech has well taken care of the rebuttal. I just want to add another point. If you "American Friends" can not understand "Chinese Friends" positions, it is very simple: give up your moral highground. You've never earned it and you never deserved it. Stop confusing the basketball issue with freedom, human rights and constitution these hypycritic words. As long as you are not using double-standards (calling other people's patriosm as nationalism, sounds familiar?), things will be fine. I have been reading this bbs for a while (since the lottory day). I recalled the days before the draft day, the bbs was as hot as jalapena and the "American Friends" started treads after treads bashing CBA, Chinese Gov't. I can honestly tell you I was very annoyed and so were a lot of "Chinese friends". But it was not until this morning when I saw how panda had been attacked crazy that made me really upset. That was what led to the great debate of conservative environment. I am only a casual user of this BBS. I do not have as much time as some of the posters who can devote a lot of time arguing and bashing. As I said earlier, I could care less about the BBS. I am only interested in Yao Ming and his development. Of course, Basketball is a team effort, I will have to cheer for Rockets in order to see Yao Ming successful. My other interest is to see the Chinese NT do well. These two interests diverge when there is a schedule/interest conflict as we face now. I hope as adults (Are we all) we all need to exercise restraints and stop bashing. I am certainly prepared to do so. If this is not possible, as one of the earlier poster called me "unwelcome", then that is fine. I can obtain Yao Ming news from plenty of other sources. I would encourage other "Chinese friends" who are fed up with bashing to either leave the bbs or bash out loudly back as well. QUOTE]Originally posted by heech Please, Feigan is only liable for libel if he knowingly published information intended to hurt the reputation of another. He most certainly can not be sued simply for quoting something erroneously. Neither did I. I don't even know the argument you're referring to. My point's pretty simple: it seems like you're asserting the CBA has some kind of a legal obligation to hand over Yao Ming on the basis of oral comments that allege "agreements", as reported by the Houston Chronicle. I don't care how proud you are of the First Amendment and how dismissive you are of the Chinese press, that's simply not true. I'll wait for the legally enforceable document to be presented. And if your point is simply that Feigan knows what the Rockets are telling him, then I'll agree with that 100%. It doesn't really matter what the Chinese press said. Even if the Chinese press didn't say a single word on the matter, you *still* wouldn't have a leg to stand on. [/QUOTE]
For as much as I hate Heyparnter's posts, this is the I like. Heypartner, you hit right on target. I can go even a step further, NBA's collective bargaining agreement represents the most selfish nature of the American sports business. I think any EUro league will echo my view. For only $350,000, you got Yao Ming, Dirk and Pau Gasol. What a bargain!
heypartner is calling it like he sees it. others may not have said anything, but i'm pretty sure we're all in agreement that the CBA officials are a pretty nasty bunch. and if they weren't holding Yao's contract (and other talented Chinese BBallers) hostage, no NBA general manager in their right mind would go near them with a 10-foot pole... moral highground has nothing to do with it. these CBA guys are terrible businessmen to deal with, bordering on fraud... their treatment of their own players (and their own players' apparent distaste for them is proof) makes them only that much more disgusting. many in this country support Wang's decision to diss these officials. many in this country don't see WHY the CBA has to link Wang's decision with Yao's contract. and even when we understand why the CBA does it, it only makes our opinion of them worse. fwang, panda, heech, are you all saying that your CBA officials are simply misunderstood nice-guys? Come on! These dumb INCOMPETENT bastards are drawing disgrace to all Chinese businessmen, and all Chinese as a consequence. Is that so hard to understand? That's all HP is trying to say.
Dont get too excited, you liberal extremist, since u have assumed I m a conservative. Nobody is talking about politics 101 here. I was just referring to how things are done in the Communist China in general, be it the authoritative governmental bureaucracy, or the dictative CBA. Anyone with some knowledges to deal with the Chinese either in governmental affairs or in business know that. For argument sake, even though not likely, if Wang does choose to deflect and US allows him to (again , not likely. So dont kill me on this), U bet it'll become a political issue. I m sure Yao can leave the country without too much of a problem for now, as long as he's not one of those Chinese dissidents. Ask them if they could use their passports freely. That goes for the oversea Chinese ( of Chinese nationality) who can't go back there because of their opposing views of the communist regime. Your reference to Cuban is "IDIOTIC"-- "If the contracts allow this or that". This type of contracts probably wont even be allowed here. The fact that an exploitatEE is willing to sign his or her name on a piece of paper doesnt automatively make it legally binding in this country. There are reasonable codes that all contracts have to abide by. Just that with your IDIOTIC mind you decide to sign a piece of paper to sell your beloved daughter to someone else doesnt make it a legal contract in the court of laws. Again, dont assume only conservatives are against communism. Many, including libertarians, do, including myself.
Disagreed with you completely. You may argue that CBA guys are poor businessmen but calling them fraud is simply wrong! As explained by Heech, Wang has a moral obligation to the Chinese fans to participate in Asian Games. As a member of the Chinese Army, he has every obligation to obey the Army and National Team's recall. How many times I have to tell you this?
