Yao Ming Rejected for Taiwan Charity Visit, China Times Reports

there are a lot. don't be too negative

 

It depends on one's point of view. Here in the States, and in D&D, of course, how one sees events in our own country (the US) are influenced by a host of things, like our upbringing (family), our culture (here, it could be the region you and/or your family is from, the level of your parent's education, ethnic background, religious background, etc.), and our identity, which needs no explanation, in my opinion. There are those, like myself, who view the political culture here over the last several years, really the last 2 and a half decades, but the point I'm attempting to make, since 9/11, as an extremist reaction to a hideous terrorist attack by the current (White House) and former (GOP Congress) government that has damaged the very institutions they claim to be fighting to preserve. And, of course, you have people like basso. Yin and Yang, if you will. Most people today seem to fall into a rather confused middle, pushed by the political winds this way and that.

To draw a parallel with the situation in Taiwan, and in particular that presented by dream208, you have a very stressful situation for the citizens of Taiwan. In the main, from how I read the situation, the majority want to maintain the status quo. They want to retain independence, but without calling it that, to avoid confrontation with China, until such time in the distant future when China has a real democracy, and Taiwan can rejoin the Mainland with confidence that their rights will be maintained. Then you have a smaller group which wants full independence, regardless of what the result may be for the majority (quite possibly war, the deaths of countless civilians, the possibility that countries like the United States are drawn into the conflict, with possible results that don't bear thinking about), along with another relatively small group that wants to become part of China now, regardless, again, of what the consequences might be for the populace at large.

Just some thoughts on my part. I've mentioned before that my own father was a WWII vet, who saw combat against the Japanese through a chance encounter, ending up killing and wounding many himself in a dirty little fight between a B-25 light bomber, without any bombs, and a very large Japanese sub that couldn't submerge. One of his best friends was killed at the time, yet he came to put that aside, and visited Japan on several occasions, enjoying the country a great deal. Yes, emotions attached to terrible things from the past can scar families and nations, but they can also be put behind with the passage of years and the realization that those responsible no longer walk the earth. That it is time to move on.




D&D. Impeach Bush and Cheney.

 

I assume that you are responding to dream208 comments and respectfully, I have read his post many times after reading your comments, and while I can agree with some of what you say, I can't see any loyalty to 'country' unless by country you mean ROC, which I understood to not be acceptable to acknowledge as a country, not the PRC. Even if you mean ROC I don't see that except by some severe extrapolation.

I'm not trying to start a fight, but we genuinely seem to be reading two different things which is troubling to me. I've reread both of his larger posts 5-10 times hoping to see where you are coming from, to no avail.

 

I myself take the same stance of dream208, in that PRC and ROC are only part of China. In the past, China was broken down into parts for many times throughout history, due to internal conflicts or foreign invasion. But Chinese stick together culturally and reunited politically everytime out of the ashes of this country. Loyalty and sense of unity is what kept China alive through thousands of years.

Now due to historical and political reasons, some Chinese descendants don't want to be loyal to China anymore, and instead, want to take advantage of her when she's broken down. Fine, pledge their loyalty or likeness to whatever culture or races or countries, but they do not, I repeat, get to disrepect China, Chinese culture and Chinese people on a piece of China's land.

As for forgetting about past conflicts with Japan, it's easy to be said than done. Basically, you guys are asking the wrong people about it. The current Japanese people are the ones that should be asked about admitting their mistakes, apologize and so that everybody can move on. Instead, they can't forget about their egos and make up excuses to whitewash and glorify their sins, prying the old wounds open again and again and again with their denial of the Nanking massacre, refusing to pay damage to Chinese, Korean and Southeast Asia's sexual slaves in WWII, justifying WWII by saying it was an invasion for right causes, rallying on the street waving Imperial Japan's flag wearing WWII military uniforms. You expect the Japanese government can do something against this crap like the German government handling Neo-nazis, and what you see is their prime ministers pay respect to temples where class A Japanese war criminals are enshrined, trying to garner votes from the right wing group, and they say it is for commemorating the bravery of warriors who died for Japan. You ask Japan to apologize for their unimaginable brutality in WWII, and they roll their eyes saying the war something done by their grandparents, it has nothing to do with them. Suddenly the continuation of an entity flies out of the window when the burden of justice and responsibility kicks in.

Where is fu#king justice, where is humanity and decency in this democratic country? Democratic they are, disgrace of democracy it is.

The same goes for the Taiwan seperatists who take sides with these bastards.

As for us, the victims of WWII, what Chinese have done so that both sides can kiss and make up? We eraised all the damage Japan has done to China officially, only reserved rights for individual victims to seek justice IN JAPAN's courts. Japan has not paid a dime for all the damage they've done to China. We say we will pay sins back with virtues, and Japan doesn't even want to apologize.

And no, we do not hate Japanese culture or its people, someone like myself is actually a Japanese fan in their cultural products.

Who is one that doesn't want to let go???

The cold hard fact is, on this particular issue, a democratic country of Japan is actually morally inferior to a dictating country like China, and some people have a hard time to admit it.

We will not forget unless Japan becomes morally reponsible for their war crimes, both their government and people, for reconciling with their war defending efforts is the utmost insult to the victims and justice.

 

To me, PRC and ROC are just two regimes of China, both designed to serve the interests of the Chinese people, on China's land. It matters little to China if PRC or ROC exists, they are merely a form of China currently manifested. If they cease to exist, we simply replace them with another regime and move on. China always stays, when regimes come and go.

 

LOL, that sounds like Falun gong crazy spiritual talk. Be careful that a bunch of men don't show up at your house then throw you in jail.

 

Thanks for making my point.



D&D. Impeach Bush and Cheney.

 

nah, everyone in china shares that view. that's one china is the only remaining ancient civilization left in the world.

 

i agree. but i guess it's hard for non-chinese to see that. they always bring up communism and democracy, which to me doens't have much to do with china as a nation/culture.

 

Well, to make you understand my crazy talk, thinking about a corporation, we the people are the stockholders, we decide what name it takes and what administration there is. The name of company is China, PRC and ROC are merely name of administration.

 

I assume you refer to the 14 class A war criminals. I've debated this before. First of all, they were convicted of being war criminals after the fact....there wasn't such thing as a war criminal at the time.

Secondly, the shrine is a religious institution, and unlike China, the gov't of Japan can not tell what a shrine to do. Considering that 2.5 million japanese soldiers are buried there, I can understand a leader paying respect to them.

 

so you are in favor of CLASS A WAR CRIMINALS. i have nothing else to say to you...

 

Did you even read his post?



Impeach Bush and Cheney.

 

I think we were talking about Yao being rejected?
Who cares about China vs Taiwan!

Who cares if Taiwan rejects Yao, as long as Memeh Okur doesn't reject Yao's shot.

all these dudes from both places are united as YOFs.

 

The key to lasting peace in Asia!

 

Dude, they weren't class A war criminals when they were buried. You think people should dig up graves to appease another nation?

I think you're way too hard on the Japanese, considering they have been a very peaceful nation since WWII.

Meanwhile, China's invade Tibet, practiced what some call genocide, and has tested some of the most powerful nuclear bombs ever detonated. They have intimidated their neighbors, and have invaded India to boot.

And you're complaining about a Japanese shrine? Geez - talk about hypocrisy.

 

wow...you can understand a leader paying respect to war criminals that committed nanjing massacre...

 

Expect a major Asian split as the upstart Yi only fans engage the stalwart Yao only fans in a battle for global supremacy.

 

A lot of you seem to forget that both PRC and ROC are very recent creations. PRC was created in 1949, whereas ROC was created in 1911. Before the nationalist revolution in 1911, there was only 1 Chinese nation, i.e. China, and the island of Taiwan was part of this Chinese nation until it was ceded to Japan.

The nationalist revolution in 1911 caused the downfall of the Qing dynasty which until the revolution was the sole government of China. The Qing government was succeeded by a new government called ROC which was then recognized as the sole legit government of China at the time. However, due to the Japanese invasion, the government of ROC was never able to fully control all the Chinese territory, and out of the ashes of the anti-Japanese war, the communists emerged as a rebel force, and they went to war with the government of ROC after the end of the WW2. The communist managed to defeat the armies of ROC on the Chinese mainland around 1949. The government of ROC retreated to the island of Taiwan and established their last stronghold there, protected by the sea and the U.S. navy. The communists declared themselves the new sole legit government of China, and to distinguish themselves from ROC, they called their new government the People's Republic, therefore PRC was born.

What this means is that from the historical point of view, the current separation between Taiwan and the mainland is the results of an unfinished Chinese civil war fought between 2 competing Chinese governments. In other words, the cause of the separation was the struggle for the right to rule the entire Chinese nation, not the independence of any part of China. So, the answer to the question of whether Taiwan is part of the China would be a resounding yes.

However, there is also no doubt that the island of Taiwan is not under the control of the government of PRC which regards itself as the sole legit government of the Chinese nation. As the sole legit government of the Chinese nation, the PRC government believes that it's its responsibility and duty to ensure the territory of the Chinese nation stays intact, this is the fundamental justification for PRC's opposition to the independence of Taiwan.

The question of loyalty to one's country inevitably gets reduced to the loyalty to one's government. A country is defined by both its territory and its people. The utmost duty of a government is to protect the territory and the people of its country from harm. The mass majorities of the PRC citizens are not necessarily loyal to the PRC government, but they are loyal to the nation of China. Since the PRC government claims to want to protect the territory of China, it receives the support of the PRC citizens.

The PRC-ROC divide is not the first time that Taiwan is separated from the mainland due to competing Chinese governments. When the Qing dynasty took control of mainland China, Taiwan was governed by a general from the Ming dynasty which Qing replaced. The last of the Ming royal family fled to Taiwan and setup their last stronghold there just like the ROC did after they were defeated by the communists. Taiwan stayed as Ming territory for a few more decades until it was militarily conquered by Qing's navy. The only difference between then and now was the interference of foreign powers, or the lack of it.

I'm sure there are still some ROC citizens who are loyal to the nation of China, but not to the government of PRC. PRC citizens would have no problem with these ROC citizens because they are both loyal to the same country. PRC has put no pressure for the reunification in the short term, instead, they just ask ROC to be patient and maintain the status quo until the day that ROC deems the reunification acceptable. I don't think this is an unreasonable request, however, it is still rejected by the supporters of Taiwan independence.

 

Based on my understanding your depiction of a 'polite request' does not properly depict the nature of the communication from the PRC to the government of Taiwan.

My understanding was more that when the issue first arose in the mid-90's the PRC decided to test fire a bunch of missles in a very pointed way in the general direction of Taiwan, and General Xiong Guangkai said to the United States, "In the end, you care more about Los Angeles than you do about Taipei.", suggesting that China would nuke the continental USA.

Not that there is anything wrong with it, but it was more a pointed threat than a polite request.