Yao Ming Rejected for Taiwan Charity Visit, China Times Reports

If it is purely a struggly between PRC and ROC, my support will be firmly on the latter. If it is a struggly between PRC and some Taiwan-Independentist regime, I will support PRC to stomp over the said party.

The current pro-independentist adminstration is using every opportunity to erase ROC from existense (just like what previous poster mentioned, using little trick such as not mentioning ROC on the government website). But as long as the constitution of this government stands, the official name of this regime is the Republic of China, and no little trick will undermine this fact.

In short, any drastic move by the pro-independentist will be oppose by both PRC and supporter of ROC in Taiwan alike. Revolution and independence always requires struggle, sometimes even violence; I do not want this conflict result in bloodshed, but I would not let some pro-Japanese right wing puppet to rob me of my home town and identity neither.

 

i don't think they are paying respect to war criminals, but to all soldiers who have served for Japan.

are you saying that if a few nazis slipped into a national cemetary, Germans shouldn't go to that cemetary at all?

 

If you really believe that by not becoming part of the PRC the ROC is expressing its own self-hatred and choosing to become Japanese lap dogs, you are a victim of propaganda. It amazes me that people keep bringing this stupidity back up to frame the argument. I would guess that by framing it through the demonizing hatred of the Japanese is the only way you can justify the posibility of massacring your fellow Han in an invasion from the mainland?

I also can appreciate the distaste of the Japansese, but if you don't realize that it is in the PRC's best interest to stoke the hatred and that they have done this, then once again you are victims of propaganda. It is just like the way that Bush tries to convince the American people that Iranians eat American babies and worship Satan.

 

i think most people have an easier time with own people killing each other, but NOT foreigners. i guess that's just human nature. as for unification and ancient culture, china was feduel states before Qin dynasty but was still unified. even though there are different cultures, but the difference isn't major. for example, the writting systems looked very similar in most cases. some are them are basically different fonts or writing style. what the emperor did more importantly was unifying currency, meansurements, and roads. and the most important thing was, every states wanted to re-unify china, was not just the Qin. every single one of the wanted to be the final state left. and this due to phiolosophical believes in china. people looked back at the previous feduel states and considered it "golden dynasty". everyone had idea of controling the whole country for another "golden state". and this continued to this day (mainland and taiwan). you see after every civil war in china, another dynasty replace the previous one. it went on for thousands of years. it's just part of the culture.

 

yes!!! besides, i'm sure germans have made sure that their war criminals NOT to be put into national cemetary. what's so hard to take out those war criminals from the shrine? because they died for the country for all the EVIL they've done? are you saying, soldiers died for evil are worthy to be respected? and if you say some of the soldiers were just following orders, fine. i don't care to that detail. but the fact that hundreds of war criminals are there is unacceptable. i'm starting to wonder your view on WWII.

 

nobody in mainland hate people in taiwan. we are all blood related ok. i have relatives in taiwan too. everyone wants peaceful re-unification. but their current government is absolutely worthless. completely selling out their own people and culture.

 

If things were that simple and China has fears of Taiwan being used against them, then they could agree upon independence contingent upon a mutual defense pact. It'd be like switching the American umbrella for a Chinese umbrella.

But there's a lot of history and antagonism between the 2 governments. Furthermore, the people of China have been convinced that Taiwan is a historically symbolic eyesore of past humiliation during the era of western/Japanese imperialism.

But if you can't respect the opinion of those who want independence by calling them traitors, then how far is that from hating? A democratic system is about civil discussion and disagreement.

 

So you are saying that there is no popular appeal to independence, and it is all part of a government plot? They do have the vote, and the people did vote for the DPP and they even re-elected them in 2004. I find it hard to believe that that could happen if there was nobody who supported them.

Again, I comment that talk of independence for Taiwan always somehow becomes linked with Japan and the idea that Independence = becomming Japanese lap dogs.

 

The poster you replied to is from Taiwan. Explain how exactly PRC's propaganda has brainwashed someone in Taiwan. Does PRC also stoke the hatred of South Koreans toward Japan?

Maybe you should take another look at who is being brainwashed here.

 

What country do you live in wnes?

 

the latest rumour has it that taiwan has reviewed yao's application and reversed its previous decision so yao now is going to taiwan. just to get the discussion back on track...

 

What, besides the fact that he wasn't raised in Taiwan, or the fact that in discussing the Taiwanese he always refers to them as 'you' or 'they' and always talks about the Taiwanese as someone else? Besides that?

How about the articles I have read by professors in both South Korea and Taiwan enumerating in great detail how in the past 50 years both of those governments used anti-Japanese sentiment as an instrument to solidify national unity? Is that good enough?

 

Mind your tounge and accusation my fellow Rocketfan Ottomaton:

You are talking to an decendent from two WWII veteran families, with one of the grandmother's family suffered deathes, casualties, and seperation from the Japanese invasion.

If there's any "propaganda" I believed, it will be the "propaganda" from my own family's stories and experiences.

I do not:
1. Hate/dislike Japanese people as a whole. Among modern figures I
respected the most, two of them are Japanese. One of them had
been critized by Japanese radical right wing as pacist.
2. Disagrees with people's right to choose path of independence, but it does
not mean I support them.

However I firmly against:
1. Japanese right-wing revisionist even till this day denies the Japanese
military atrocities during WWII. They called Nanjin a myth, war-prostitues
a fraud, and invasion to China justified. It is the same group of people
that were great friends and firm supporters for Taiwanese independenist.

2. A faction of Taiwanese independenist, who attempted to destory any
thing "Chinese" on this island, twisting past hatred to win political support,
rewritting history in order to demonize China as a whole, accusing
the "later immigrants population/mainlander, and Chinese WWII veterans as
pigs, prasing Japanese "valor" in WWII, glorifying Japanese colonial past,
and support Japanese right-wing's WWII innocent pleas. This is the group
of people I distasted. In the name of "loving Taiwan", all sort of evil and
hatreds are justified for them.

The historical background of identity conflict on this island is far more complext than you think Ottoman. I can understand anti-Chinese, and pro-Japanese sentiments among some Taiwanese population. But that sentiment is being twisted and used for political interests, just like what you are accusing PRC government on the Japanese WWII issues.

I was born and raised in Taipei, I personally experienced this escalation of identity conflict ever since certain pro-indpendentist political party struggled to power. I doubt, you, my fellow Rocketfan Ottoman, had much real experience about the ongoing conflict on this island, and the among of hatred, currouption, and evil it brew. Maybe, you are the one that subjected to the propagandas. Before encountering me, do you belive all people on this island fervently support the independence? Do you believe PRC government is the only causing such conflcit? Do you even understand the history or background of this island?

For aliitle story. most of the pro-independist party (DDP)'s orignial members left them in the past decade in distastes. The old members who left were immediately branded the name "betrayers of Taiwan". "they dont love Taiwan enough", "Chinese pigs". Ironically, those who left are the same group of people that stayed in Taiwan even during the days of martial-law, and many of them were jail for this cause. They are pro-independist. anti-Communist, anti-Japan and anti-KMT under CKS. But most of them are not anti-China as a culture, civilization, and people.
Those who do stay in the party therefore stay in power are those who fled to Japan and US, and only returned when the island's began political under the direction of CKS's son. They are anti-China, anti-Chinese peope, culture, and extremely pro-Japan. At least, I do not see how a man only refered China as Zina (a term which became deogortory to China by Japanese nationalist during WWII), wishing China divided and self-destory, dissing Chinese history, calling us pigs. vowed to destory any 'Chineseness" in Taiwan, are not anti-Chinese people. As a Chinese, it is nature I don't hold a great love for those power-hungry, spinless, group of people.

 

So you are saying that nobody on the island wants independece from both China and Japan and that any fellow Taiwanese who wish to become independent of China (if they exist) wish to become Japanese? My understanding is that you would have a hard time getting a majority at all that shared the same vision for the future of Taiwan. In other words that there is no majority in any form about how to approach the future of the island.

Thinking about your post, it seems to be saying that none of the issues are black/white or all/nothing which essentially was my point in noting that the people of the Chinese mainland seems to portray it as either embrace the PRC or become a part of Japan.

 

There are rarely any subject in our culture and history that can be clearly defined as black and white. But for individuals, it is possible, sometimes necessary to build up positive or negative opinion toward certain idea based on our own past experiences and memories.

However, Taiwan issue has been always linked to the past century Sino-Japanese conflict, and is not caused by coincident or politcal deliberation.
The province of Taiwan was ceded to Japan as the result of Sin0-Japanese War at 1895, a battle many past and comtemporary Chinese viewed as greatest national shame in the past 200 years.

Japan colonialized Taiwan for 50 years from 1895 till 1945. The style of colonial rule varied throughout years, but to make long story short, the intensive "Kongminka (SP)" or Japanization policy during WWII had left a large pro-Japanese sentiment on this island. This sentiment was further strengthened by weakness and corruption of Chinese government after WWII (also empified by the verherent anti-Chinese rehtoric during the war by the Japanese government).

Thus, till this day, the pro-independist movement in Taiwan is frequently associated with Pro-Japan and Anti-China sentiment. Sentimentally, Japanese colonization had left enduring impression on this island, and furthered strengthened by the revisionist historian (or today, education). Politically, it is logical (for the pro-independist) to ally with Japanese right-wing government (who are largely anti-China as well) to confront the growing power of the mainland.

Nevertheless, some pro-independist party or personnal began to "use" this pro-Japanese or anti-China sentiment to gain political edge, And alas, history soon revised and reforged as a powerful political, and propaganda weapon. And nothing is more effective to stir up people's sentiment by using hatred against certain group of people. By creating "Them" and "Us", factional support was gained, and elections were won by the minor margin... for the price of division, and growing internal confrontation.

The later immigrant population (those who retreated to Taiwan at 1949, after the defeat of civil war) did not experience Japanese colonial period, instead, they experience 8 years brutal Japanese invasion. The first generation of this group (which composed of 15% of Taiwan population, but shrinking), is extremely Chinese nationalistic, and anti-Japan. For most of them were war veterans who fought at the revolution, WWII, and civil wars. Many, if not majority, of their decendent share this Chinese/ROC-patriotism till this day. And because of their close tie to the Chinese past, they became an easy target for the anti-Chinese independist party during the election.

Such confrontation between "earlier immigrants (those who experience Japanese rule)" and "later immigrants (those who did not)", thus became a theme in the Republic of China's recent elections.




And for your question, my fellow Rocketfan Ottomaton, yes, there are alot of people in Taiwan wish for independence; people who yearn for reunification is minority.

But I repeat again, I do not disagree with people's right of self-determination, and independence. It is the method they adpot to achieve this goal I distasted. And I am more disgusted by the people (political leaders) who executing those tactics I mentioned above.

Finally, the majority of population on this island wish for neither immediate independence nor reunifcation. And those who wish for political independist does not always want to severe their cultural tie with Chinese civilization. China does not equal to PRC as many anti-China pro-independist wished to protrait. On the other hand, at the current stage, the pro-unification population would definetly ally themselves with the mainland government if this pro-Independist adminstration dare to declare independence or change the name of the government. They have the right to seek independence, we have the right to resist and undermine such effort. At least for my family, our political and cultural allegence is first to China as a whole, the historical indentity past down through thousands of years, for which both PRC and ROC are only part of it.

 

i think it all depends on when they were buried and what they actually did. It's too hard for me to judge. But I don't think these leaders who visit these shrines are in any way advocating or respecting what happened.

 

Thank you for a detailed and thoughtful response.

 

Your welcome Ottomation, though I afraind my post far from thoughtful nor detail

 

Guess some people still know what loyalty to his family, country, culture and identity mean.

 

you've avoided my questions again. oh well.